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Is this partly why the Manual is not available for the 2.7L Engine?

Laminar

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Not too long ago, someone did a poll asking which motor you would choose if both were offered with the manual. Almost 9 out of 10 said they would take the 2.7.
This forum has about 10,000 users total. If EVERY SINGLE ONE of them went out and bought a Bronco, it'd account for 5% of what Ford plans to sell in a year. This forum is made up of the fanatics, the weirdos, the obsessed - a poll here is not representative of the buying public. Ford has the market research on the buying public, they know what will sell and what won't, they've run the numbers.
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Rick Astley

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What didnā€™t you like about the 10-speed?
The reasons are multi-fasceted:

  • Auto-stop/start is a PITA (we used Forscan to disable this, which cost $200)
  • take-off from a stop is notchy
  • take-off from a stop while on a incline can randomly have a stomach-lurching roll-back
  • mostly incapable of compression braking as it will simply hold 9th gear as you slow down, pushing 100% of braking force to the brakes (this can have some long-term issues when hauling a load, or maxed out and you start getting brake fade)
  • Why am I rolling at 25 mph in 9th gear?
  • If you change the dash display to show the gear you can watch it "hunt" for ways to make you dislike the torque curve of the vehicle (rolling starts in 5th, having to downshift 4 gears to give acceleration, merging on the freeway in 7th)
  • It's singleminded goal in life is to maximize fuel economy in all situations..... In a vehicle that is essentially exempt from tailpipe emissions and puts out about 3x more pollutants than any car in a developed nation, that 1 mpg improvement while polluting 300% more seems a misguided intention.
  • Watch it's gear selection while towing (manually setting the truck to tow mode and trailer sway control) and it's a bit better, but you would be better served with a manual and paying attention to what the F you're doing.
  • This is a transmission which performs better (assuming your only goal with a truck isn't fuel economy... Because if your only goal was fuel economy.... YOU BOUGHT A F-ING TRUCK FOR FUEL ECONOMY???) in manual mode but having 10 gears so close together is semi-truck territory and unnecessary in a production vehicle.

    Ultimately it's a perfectly adequate automatic for what 90% of people buy automatics for. To push a pedal and have magic happen so they don't have to pay attention to anything or understand gearing/load/speed/situation.
 

toystwo

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Thanks for the thorough explanation. Iā€™ve never driven a vehicle with the 10 speed. Several of those things seem very annoying. Do you normally drive aggressively or more laid back?
 

max6spd

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A lot has to do with demand. I purchased the newer body style Xterra the first year it came out in 2005 with a stick. Loved it. I live in NY but I had to go out to MA to purchase it because no NY dealer was willing to order one. I asked and they all said the same thing "no demand for a MT truck".
 

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The more I offroad... The less I like manuals... But I want to kill myself when I have to drive a auto on pavement. It's boring and it's like banging a hot chick who just lays there limp
So you'd rather bang an ugly chick that really gets into it?

Oh, wait, we're talking about vehicle transmissions...
 

VTBronco

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The main reason is that nobody would actually buy it

It costs money to certify a trans/engine combo and it's not cheap.

People on forums love to whine about manual transmission dying, but not enough of them open their wallets and buy new vehicles.

I've only owned manual vehicles but man, it's over. Automatics are good now. Unless I'm at the Porsche store I'll take the slushbox next time
This.
My first car was stick and I loved it...that Honda Accord manual just hit different. But autos are the way to go now.

At least we know how to drive a manual in some strange Twilight Zone-universe when we need to!
 

Zinn

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The reasons are multi-fasceted:

  • Auto-stop/start is a PITA (we used Forscan to disable this, which cost $200)
  • take-off from a stop is notchy
  • take-off from a stop while on a incline can randomly have a stomach-lurching roll-back
  • mostly incapable of compression braking as it will simply hold 9th gear as you slow down, pushing 100% of braking force to the brakes (this can have some long-term issues when hauling a load, or maxed out and you start getting brake fade)
  • Why am I rolling at 25 mph in 9th gear?
  • If you change the dash display to show the gear you can watch it "hunt" for ways to make you dislike the torque curve of the vehicle (rolling starts in 5th, having to downshift 4 gears to give acceleration, merging on the freeway in 7th)
  • It's singleminded goal in life is to maximize fuel economy in all situations..... In a vehicle that is essentially exempt from tailpipe emissions and puts out about 3x more pollutants than any car in a developed nation, that 1 mpg improvement while polluting 300% more seems a misguided intention.
  • Watch it's gear selection while towing (manually setting the truck to tow mode and trailer sway control) and it's a bit better, but you would be better served with a manual and paying attention to what the F you're doing.
  • This is a transmission which performs better (assuming your only goal with a truck isn't fuel economy... Because if your only goal was fuel economy.... YOU BOUGHT A F-ING TRUCK FOR FUEL ECONOMY???) in manual mode but having 10 gears so close together is semi-truck territory and unnecessary in a production vehicle.

    Ultimately it's a perfectly adequate automatic for what 90% of people buy automatics for. To push a pedal and have magic happen so they don't have to pay attention to anything or understand gearing/load/speed/situation.
Thanks for the explanation. I havenā€™t been bothered by most of these in my 20 Ranger, though I havenā€™t driven it too much. My main complaint is that it can be too slow react, which gets in the way of passing lane heroics. The 2.3L itself has a ton of passing power in the right gear, but sometimes getting there is too slow.

I have no desire to play with the manual shift mode on a 10 speed gearbox, so the most Iā€™ve done is put it in Sport mode.
 

Zinn

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I just finished watching the video below. The video explains how an electronic throttle-body leads to rev hang with a manual transmission. In short, to prevent additional emissions of either CO and HydroCarbons (Rich fuel/air mixture) or NOx (Lean fuel/air mixture), the closing of the throttle-body is delayed to allow excess fuel coating the header to be burnt efficiently and opening of the throttle-body is delayed to allow fuel to be mixed properly.

Since the 2.3L as direct injection, there is no fuel coating the intake reducing the time needed to clear the excess fuel when the throttle-body closes shorting the rev hang.

In short, are emissions are a part of the reason preventing the manual transmission being used with the 2.7L Port and direct injection?



Now I drove a Scion FR-S with a 6 speed MT and the Toyota DS-4 Fuel system with direct and port injection and I don't recall any issues with rev-hang on that car.
Wouldnā€™t this be the same issue in any engine with port injection? (eg. the 5.0 Mustang)? It seems like a better explanation is Ford doesnā€™t think it would be profitable enough to go through the engineering effort.

Personally I would rather take the 2.3L manual and save some money. People here are underestimating what the engine is capable of, and the Bronco is just not about straight line speed to the point where horsepower will actually matter between the two engines.
 

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Rick Astley

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Thanks for the thorough explanation. Iā€™ve never driven a vehicle with the 10 speed. Several of those things seem very annoying. Do you normally drive aggressively or more laid back?
Well it's a truck, so I don't cane it or anything. I would say that the auto will suit most people very well. It just has so many unique character flaws that I don't understand why 10 speeds is better than 6 for anything other than fuel economy. (I daily-drove a 500 all-wheel HP evo for a few years, but the class of vehicle is totally different compared to a truck)


Put the Ranger in sport mode, manual control (shift button on the side of the shifter also seems strange, but paddle shifters on a truck would have been silly), and you can launch that thing pretty good and it will get on any freeway you can think of in short order. GOBS of torque out of that 2.3 and it's actually quite smooth. We did a 2,000 mile road trip to Glacier National Park with the Ranger and it was unflappable. We've overloaded the chassis and you couldn't even tell it had weight behind it.

I'm extremely excited to pair the 2.3 with a proper manual transmission. In fact, the manual being available was the final nail in the coffin in wanting a Bronco. While I think the 2.3 will eventually be phased out of Bronco (Modern production cars just don't get made anymore unless they have a high take rate), it's a fantastic motor for the chassis.
 

Rick Astley

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Thanks for the explanation. I havenā€™t been bothered by most of these in my 20 Ranger, though I havenā€™t driven it too much. My main complaint is that it can be too slow react, which gets in the way of passing lane heroics. The 2.3L itself has a ton of passing power in the right gear, but sometimes getting there is too slow.

I have no desire to play with the manual shift mode on a 10 speed gearbox, so the most Iā€™ve done is put it in Sport mode.
Change the display so you can actually watch what the transmission is doing.... It's baffling! That slowness to react you'll find, is downshifting 4 gears as it likes to be about 2 gears higher than needed at all times.

Would bet the paycheck that they tackle this on Bronco by heavily altering the shifting habits in the drive modes. And that most people will want to keep their car in a specific mode even in daily driving scenarios as it's "more fun" than the standard settings.
 

WadeWolf76

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The reasons are multi-fasceted:

  • Auto-stop/start is a PITA (we used Forscan to disable this, which cost $200)
  • take-off from a stop is notchy
  • take-off from a stop while on a incline can randomly have a stomach-lurching roll-back
  • mostly incapable of compression braking as it will simply hold 9th gear as you slow down, pushing 100% of braking force to the brakes (this can have some long-term issues when hauling a load, or maxed out and you start getting brake fade)
  • Why am I rolling at 25 mph in 9th gear?
  • If you change the dash display to show the gear you can watch it "hunt" for ways to make you dislike the torque curve of the vehicle (rolling starts in 5th, having to downshift 4 gears to give acceleration, merging on the freeway in 7th)
  • It's singleminded goal in life is to maximize fuel economy in all situations..... In a vehicle that is essentially exempt from tailpipe emissions and puts out about 3x more pollutants than any car in a developed nation, that 1 mpg improvement while polluting 300% more seems a misguided intention.
  • Watch it's gear selection while towing (manually setting the truck to tow mode and trailer sway control) and it's a bit better, but you would be better served with a manual and paying attention to what the F you're doing.
  • This is a transmission which performs better (assuming your only goal with a truck isn't fuel economy... Because if your only goal was fuel economy.... YOU BOUGHT A F-ING TRUCK FOR FUEL ECONOMY???) in manual mode but having 10 gears so close together is semi-truck territory and unnecessary in a production vehicle.

    Ultimately it's a perfectly adequate automatic for what 90% of people buy automatics for. To push a pedal and have magic happen so they don't have to pay attention to anything or understand gearing/load/speed/situation.
Sounds like a decent tune would fix most of that.
 

wvmtneer

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The more I offroad... The less I like manuals... But I want to kill myself when I have to drive a auto on pavement. It's boring and it's like banging a hot chick who just lays there limp
Ford Bronco Is this partly why the Manual is not available for the 2.7L Engine? 358DFB6E-D830-4155-931A-4F272AF7A76A
 

dgorsett

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The reasons are multi-fasceted:

  • Auto-stop/start is a PITA (we used Forscan to disable this, which cost $200)
  • take-off from a stop is notchy
  • take-off from a stop while on a incline can randomly have a stomach-lurching roll-back
  • mostly incapable of compression braking as it will simply hold 9th gear as you slow down, pushing 100% of braking force to the brakes (this can have some long-term issues when hauling a load, or maxed out and you start getting brake fade)
  • Why am I rolling at 25 mph in 9th gear?
  • If you change the dash display to show the gear you can watch it "hunt" for ways to make you dislike the torque curve of the vehicle (rolling starts in 5th, having to downshift 4 gears to give acceleration, merging on the freeway in 7th)
  • It's singleminded goal in life is to maximize fuel economy in all situations..... In a vehicle that is essentially exempt from tailpipe emissions and puts out about 3x more pollutants than any car in a developed nation, that 1 mpg improvement while polluting 300% more seems a misguided intention.
  • Watch it's gear selection while towing (manually setting the truck to tow mode and trailer sway control) and it's a bit better, but you would be better served with a manual and paying attention to what the F you're doing.
  • This is a transmission which performs better (assuming your only goal with a truck isn't fuel economy... Because if your only goal was fuel economy.... YOU BOUGHT A F-ING TRUCK FOR FUEL ECONOMY???) in manual mode but having 10 gears so close together is semi-truck territory and unnecessary in a production vehicle.

    Ultimately it's a perfectly adequate automatic for what 90% of people buy automatics for. To push a pedal and have magic happen so they don't have to pay attention to anything or understand gearing/load/speed/situation.
Good info, do you suppose running in Sport mode would iron out some of these problems?
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