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TXNavy

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Now, both 1st and 2nd place this year at KOH were by SFA rigs, most years at KOH, Baja, Dakar, etc are IFS, IRS trophy trucks.

Why?

Versatility of IS rigs in extreme crawl and high speed situations make them preferred even though the cost and science is much more complex.
I watched 80% of the KOH this year, last half of lap 1 to 30th finisher, and many of the IFS and IFS/IRS were leading through the 2nd lap. Jason Shehrer was actually pulling away with a 8-10 minute lead before he ran out of gas. After that he got stuck in traffic and finished 5th(?). I also watched the KOH Hill Climb and many of the IFS rigs did well there too. What seemed to be the difference is that the SFA guys just brute force the line relying on a super beefy engine and articulation to throw the vehicle over obstacles. The problem I saw with this is that when things went wrong they took a lot of time resetting and backing down to get a rolling start at the problem. In comparison the IFS vehicles were able to pick routes with shorter lines but they were able to steadily advance.

Also I understand that currently the SFA is considered the better choice but how much of that is just due to time spent with the design and broad commercial use? From what I understand the IFS/IRS rigs are only 8-9 years old in the Ultra4 and a few examples older than that in other rock crawling comps. With a mass produced vehicle like the Bronco having IFS it opens up a commercial business opportunity for companies to put more R&D into making the IFS a more capable suspension. Now I'm not saying there aren't limitations to them that SFA won't always be better at but typically competition to engineer something better benefits us all.
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If I had to guess, the frames on the Bronco and "Warthog" will be the same.
Suspension parts will be different.
Months ago there was a post that the Warthog frame is heavier duty. What is unclear is did they just use thicker gage steel or change the design?

Seeing that the Bronco 4600 is a stock frame design it would seem maybe the Warthog is as well.
 

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Don't worry about Jeep. They've got their egomaniacal, 3rd person speaking, pompous drunk driver to sell their foreign owned brand vehicles.

Ford Bronco Bronco engineered to beat Wrangler's VCI (traversing soft terrain) according to member on Wranglerforums 1612994024109
 
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MadMan4BamaNATL

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I watched 80% of the KOH this year, last half of lap 1 to 30th finisher, and many of the IFS and IFS/IRS were leading through the 2nd lap. Jason Shehrer was actually pulling away with a 8-10 minute lead before he ran out of gas. After that he got stuck in traffic and finished 5th(?). I also watched the KOH Hill Climb and many of the IFS rigs did well there too. What seemed to be the difference is that the SFA guys just brute force the line relying on a super beefy engine and articulation to throw the vehicle over obstacles. The problem I saw with this is that when things went wrong they took a lot of time resetting and backing down to get a rolling start at the problem. In comparison the IFS vehicles were able to pick routes with shorter lines but they were able to steadily advance.

Also I understand that currently the SFA is considered the better choice but how much of that is just due to time spent with the design and broad commercial use? From what I understand the IFS/IRS rigs are only 8-9 years old in the Ultra4 and a few examples older than that in other rock crawling comps. With a mass produced vehicle like the Bronco having IFS it opens up a commercial business opportunity for companies to put more R&D into making the IFS a more capable suspension. Now I'm not saying there aren't limitations to them that SFA won't always be better at but typically competition to engineer something better benefits us all.
You are precisely correct here on all points TXNavy. Shehrer did run out of gas, otherwise he likely would have won and the rock obstacles were as you described. The last big day (Sat) is on YouTube on the Ultra4 channel or KOH channel or whatever if anyone wants to deep dive into watching pros in trophy trucks take down the impossible. Ultimate Adventure rigs are closer to street rigs that do some of these things, but you will see a lot of mechanical carnage.

IS is clearly the future for off road. The flex is improving, the strength of materials is as well. Incorporation of carbon fiber weaved material makes things lighter and shatter proof, but still crazy expensive for now, but in 10 years, who knows?

Bronco was all over KOH because the series is also keen to adopting IS rigs moving forward. IS and electrification are two updates that are coming online faster each year. With Bronco popularity a lot of shit is about to change for the better.
 

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I mean... we have beaten this horse to death but the Jeep diehards are firmly in the SFA camp. They will never admit to the Bronco being competitive because they then mentally open the door to having an inferior product. They must continue to convince themselves that Jeep is the only way to go as a means to validate their financial decisions without regrets.

Ford Bronco Bronco engineered to beat Wrangler's VCI (traversing soft terrain) according to member on Wranglerforums Rex

Photo Credit: @EvlNvrDys chest.
What is this Bronco you speak of? The one we are still waiting for - the vehicle no one even owns yet? Jeep an inferior product to the Bronco? You don't even have a product, lol.

Some day when the new Bronco finally arrives, I'll be happy to toot it's horn, in areas where it is proven to best Jeep. But for now let's not get too far over the skis.
 

Mainerunr

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I think stock IFS is better.. the engineer does state that those that modify will have better performance. Because on the jeep the arms go back, and attach to the fram.. so putting longer ones on is very easy, as long as you maintain overal geometry. I am no engineer but with an IFS i believe it attaches on either side of the wheel/axle to the frame, to allow up and down movement. So if you put a longer arm on IFS your wheel goes further out from the body, so your ability to increase articulation will be limited. So if you are building a purpose built rock crawler then IFS is not better. However for driving on roads, or high speed trail/dessert running then IFS is better. And if you achieve the same amount of articulation with both solutions, then IFS is better because of it's ability to keep the wheels in maximum contact in various conditions. The reality of 98% of jeep or bronco owners, is that they will never need that extra inch or two of articulation, and are better served by a high articulation IFS solution. I watched the video from KOH of a bronco doing 70 miles an hour down a washed out dirt trail, and the person recording on a camera phone as able to hold the camera stable enough for a smooth picture, that is amazing. If my jeep was doing 70 on that road, i would not be able to even hold on to my phone.

IFS control arms
Ford Bronco Bronco engineered to beat Wrangler's VCI (traversing soft terrain) according to member on Wranglerforums Rex


solid axle control arms
Ford Bronco Bronco engineered to beat Wrangler's VCI (traversing soft terrain) according to member on Wranglerforums Rex
so with a long arm setup, your normal, resting position can be roughly the same width, you just have to push those arms down more.

I watched 80% of the KOH this year, last half of lap 1 to 30th finisher, and many of the IFS and IFS/IRS were leading through the 2nd lap. Jason Shehrer was actually pulling away with a 8-10 minute lead before he ran out of gas. After that he got stuck in traffic and finished 5th(?). I also watched the KOH Hill Climb and many of the IFS rigs did well there too. What seemed to be the difference is that the SFA guys just brute force the line relying on a super beefy engine and articulation to throw the vehicle over obstacles. The problem I saw with this is that when things went wrong they took a lot of time resetting and backing down to get a rolling start at the problem. In comparison the IFS vehicles were able to pick routes with shorter lines but they were able to steadily advance.

Also I understand that currently the SFA is considered the better choice but how much of that is just due to time spent with the design and broad commercial use? From what I understand the IFS/IRS rigs are only 8-9 years old in the Ultra4 and a few examples older than that in other rock crawling comps. With a mass produced vehicle like the Bronco having IFS it opens up a commercial business opportunity for companies to put more R&D into making the IFS a more capable suspension. Now I'm not saying there aren't limitations to them that SFA won't always be better at but typically competition to engineer something better benefits us all.
Wasn't the guy they kept mentioning as having run Sledgehammer(?) without winching running an IFS rig? Bailey Cole I think it was?
 

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BigMike949

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so with a long arm setup, your normal, resting position can be roughly the same width, you just have to push those arms down more.

So with that, and then moving the assembly up to make room for the longer lower arms. and new coilovers, i am understanding that lifting the bronco after market could be pretty pricey.. I took a look at a full jeep icon lift is like 2-3k for a stage one, but for the raptor is like 6k, I know the raptor is heavier, but i am feeling like lifting the bronco aftermarket may end up being 3-4k.. which really makes the sasquatch package look pretty good.


Wasn't the guy they kept mentioning as having run Sledgehammer(?) without winching running an IFS rig? Bailey Cole I think it was?
 

Used2jeep

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Wasn't the guy they kept mentioning as having run Sledgehammer(?) without winching running an IFS rig? Bailey Cole I think it was?
Peter Gabriel?

 

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