What styling cues does Bronco need to have

[Guidr3]

Ford don’t be a one trick poney remember the half cab Ute you will need one to complete with the gladiator to complete the bronco portfolio or else fall behind in the fight for suv supremacy

Sponsored

 

[Guidr3]

Ford. FISH OR CUT BAIT. Build the dam half cab. Then you’ll be cooking with grease p.s I do not have a degree in rocket science

 

[mikonrad]

Not really a styling question but I am curious about the infotainment system that'll be in the Bronco. Currently, Ford runs Sync 3 which (thankfully-finally) runs Android Auto (I think Apple Carplay too?). Does anyone have any experience with Sync 3? If so, would you consider it pretty smooth and intuitive - maybe when compared to good aftermarket head units? I recall the original Sync being fairly clunky but that was about 5 years ago and I'm assuming alot has changed since then.

On that note, any techies here aware of any upcoming tech Ford may be implementing in their infotainment systems by the time the Bronco releases?

Edit - any idea how long Ford supports the firmware on their devices??

 

[OX1]

I have seen three rigs with bad death wobble, and all of them were clapped out and in need of some TLC.

I have, horribly. And it was slightly egged out holes in track bar/shock mount, frame bracket in my first 78.
Had 4" suspension and 33's AT's, nothing crazy really. I cut out small squares, drilled correct size hole,
and welded them over the originals. Never had a problem again.

I agree it is a non issue if components are designed well enough.

 

[Nickp]

@mikonrad Sync 3 is a HUGE improvement over previous Sync, and IIRC has been getting updates with bug fixes etc. I think there are quite a few improvements with the 2020 MY Ford vehicles as well, and I believe they are even including it as a standard option on the 2020 Escape? So expect it in its newest iteration in the Bronco, which should be fantastic.

 

[phillyfx4]

Any type of suspension can get death wobble. It is most pervasive on solid axles with track bars, but it certainly isn't limited to that configuration. The thing about death wobble is that it generally is caused by worn out components (track bar bushings, tie rod ends, ball joints), but is typically exacerbated and initiated by poor suspension geometry due to badly executed modifications.

Have you ever experienced actually death wobble? I have owned many solid axle vehicles that get used hard, some with completely custom suspension and steering, and I have never experienced death wobble in one of my own. I have seen three rigs with bad death wobble, and all of them were clapped out and in need of some TLC.

yes..... @ about 70/80 mph on I195 E going surf fishing @ 5am …..humbling to say the least

 

[TeocaliMG]

I keep hoping Ford won't disappoint me with another lame IFS soft-roader, but seeing as you seem to know some inside information, it seems I am destined for heartbreak.

TTB and A-arm IFS are completely different animals, not to mention, the IFS systems on Ultra4 rigs has absolutely nothing in common with the IFS systems on production vehicles. Yes as I've said before, IFS can be made to perform if you have deep pockets and don't mind the extra complexity. However, it can't compete with a solid axle on technical terrain.

People will have there preferences, and yes it sounds like you will be disappointed. I don't know if I can put you at ease at all, but let me try:
Of course I understand the TTB is different from SLA, TTB is also very different from a solid axle. Just because it looks like a solid axle doesnt mean it performs like one. There are two key advantages of TTB over SLA and only one of those is shared with the solid axle, that is cost basis robustness. Yes SLA can be made bullet proof (not as hard as you think) but even still it is cheaper generally to get the same toughness in TTB or Solid axle.

advantage 2 of TTB over SLA, length. TTB is essentially SLA without the S, its just a long arm which is great for long travel since it has a relatively lower angle for the same travel. its no secret though that this can still cause issues with steering and driveline

SLA has many advantages, the most obvious is the additional arm which controls the camber through travel allowing the suspension to be tuned much more dynamically.

As for Ultra-4 I hear this all the time, if those rigs have "nothing in common" with production SLA then it is absolutely fair to say the same of solid axle rigs. They are both incredibly fine tuned and beefed up. My point is that at the end of the day SLA can perform. The only performance that must be conceded without incurring a cost penalty is slow rock crawling and even then its not a forfeit.

I think the reason people have a hard time imagining this is that the midsize segment right now is not offering SLA a fair shake. the Ranger, Taco, Colorado, and even the FJ cruiser all had short wheel travel. You need wheel travel in IFS to compete with the downtravel of solid axles in articulation (solid axles still have crappy uptravel compared to SLA in jounce). This is where the raptor comes in, the raptor is production and it has a killer stock SLA set up. it has about as long of arms as you can put on a production frame, and it gets over a foot of wheel travel with that. That will do everything you need it to and then some on the rocks when you combine the short wheel base, great angles and an extra twisty rear axle (rear is always easier to articulate so it makes sense to keep solid axle).

AHHH that was long, I can go into way more detail if needed, I know people have their preferences but I absolutely love offroad vehicle dynamics and there is so much misunderstood about typical IFS setups because basically all manufacturers stick to short travel applications. keep in mind most manufacturers are not trying to build legit competitors to the jeep, the bronco is and it CAN be done with ifs. Examples like the colorado Zr2 and FJ cruiser, though cool, were not as free to compete on a new platform as the new bronco. The bronco is on an ALL NEW ranger platform and as such (with some Raptor DNA thrown in) it should be more than capable of competing with jeep on both cost and performance basis

 

[TeocaliMG]

Don't apologize for the length of the post! It was well worded and you obviously are pretty knowledgeable. As I mentioned, it seems like you know some inside information, so I appreciate your insight.

Let me explain a few of my comments.

As for Ultra4, my point is that the IFS setups you see are not based on OEM A-arm designs at all. They use centered differentials based on Ford 9" and Dana 60s typically (solid axles in OEM form) with very long fabricated boxed A-arms and knuckles with spherical joints and hydraulic ram steering. You are correct, the solid axles are heavily modified as well, and many certainly do not have a single part in common with a factory axle. My point is that they are based on factory axle designs such that many of the parts found on Ultra4 solid axle cars could be bolted or welded onto a factory axle. I would be surprised if the same could be said for any of the IFS cars. Strictly speaking about the unlimited class of course. Also, solid front axle cars are still quite competitive in the unlimited class, in fact Erik Miller, one of the top drivers, still runs one.

A well done A-arm IFS can perform well in most terrains and situations, but even perfected, there is still quite a bit of give and take compared to a well-setup solid axle. The problem as you pointed out is that the vast majority of modern 4x4 A-arm designs are lacking. The aluminum clamshell differential housings are weak and are notorious for splitting in half with a locker in the rocks. The short A-arms severely limit travel as you pointed out. The OEM CV axles are typically pretty weak and aftermarket upgraded axles are extremely expensive compared to upgraded solid axle shafts. Clearance is typically worse than a solid axle, especially during suspension compression. The rack and pinion steering setups are fragile compared to the recirculating ball boxes and linkages found with solid axles. Suspension kits are more expensive for A-arm IFS and more complicated to install. Even with "long travel" A-arm designs, they still don't articulate as well as a solid axles. They lift tires and are typically less stable when twisted up.

My background is in rock crawling and I can tell you, IFS rigs start disappearing rapidly the more difficult the trails you go on are. On the hardest trails, I have never seen IFS rigs. The Hammers are the exception, but frankly the Ultra4 rigs tend to winch through all the hard sections. As for the Raptor being the shining example of an offroad capable IFS, I have never seen one on a real trail. Hell, I can't even recall ever seeing one in the dirt in person. They are certainly capable trucks in a class of their own, but I think the issue is that they are simply too big to fit down most trails. The trails are dominated by late model Jeeps these days. You see them on everything from easy dirt roads to full on extreme rock trails. They are very capable and versatile, and honestly I find myself getting a bit Jealous. You see Rubicons with not much more than a modest lift and some bigger tires running trails that you used to need a fully built rig and lots of experience to run just 15 years ago.

You seem to be confident that the Bronco will hold its own against the Jeep with an IFS, but obviously I am skeptical. Popularity on the trail will tell the tale, so I suppose we will see in time how it compares.

I agree with pretty much all of that. I think the raptor is certainly an exception to other IFS rigs from an engineering perspective. But like you said, they are rarely seen out on the trail. As you pointed out, they are very large, and also very expensive. As cool as the raptor is, it does not target the same market as the jeep. Yet another reason I am thankful the bronco will be based on a midsize platform. Naturally, the bronco will have a more narrow frame than the F-150 so that it can have long arms without quite as long of a overall width. Unfortunately a production bronco diff will not get to be made as narrow as an Ultra-4 rig, there are a lot of other package issues OEM's have to deal with. At the end of the day I hope the bronco, IFS or not will be seen on the trails next to jeeps based on competitive performance, sizing, and pricing. We are long overdue, dont the jeep guys get bored seeing the same familiar face?

 

[Jake_zx2]

Not really a styling question but I am curious about the infotainment system that'll be in the Bronco. Currently, Ford runs Sync 3 which (thankfully-finally) runs Android Auto (I think Apple Carplay too?). Does anyone have any experience with Sync 3? If so, would you consider it pretty smooth and intuitive - maybe when compared to good aftermarket head units? I recall the original Sync being fairly clunky but that was about 5 years ago and I'm assuming alot has changed since then.

I had Sync2 on my Fusion, and currently have Sync1 on my Focus and Sync 3 on my Mustang. Sync3 is a whole different world of excellent from previous iterations. Everything is easy to use, screen is super responsive, picture is clear, etc.

My only complaint is it takes a good bit of time for the infotainment to start up when I first start my car (probably 10-15 second boot time) and the nav needs a solid minute of being on before it'll run smoothly, but the Bluetooth links up instantly without error (not the case whatsoever for Sync 1) and it does have both apple carplay and android auto... I just never use them because I like the standard infotainment so much!

 

[mikonrad]

@TeocaliMG - you and NM had a good back and forth. Going back to IFS, I recall Dana confirming that they're building the driveline - using their AdvanTek line for both the Bronco and the 2019 Ranger (I recall a 2017 Automotive News article confirming this).

As you mentioned, the Ranger IFS, at this point, is fairly conservative. I haven't been able to find it, but would you happen to know if the Raptor's more capable IFS is a Dana unit or not? I'm curious as to the range of capabilities the Dana AdvanTek offers for IFS. Note - the Dana AT line comes both in solid and IFS so the Bronco is still up in the air, I'm just curious about Dana's IFS capabilities in the event it goes that direction.

 

[Stampede.Offroad]

@TeocaliMG - you and NM had a good back and forth. Going back to IFS, I recall Dana confirming that they're building the driveline - using their AdvanTek line for both the Bronco and the 2019 Ranger (I recall a 2017 Automotive News article confirming this).

As you mentioned, the Ranger IFS, at this point, is fairly conservative. I haven't been able to find it, but would you happen to know if the Raptor's more capable IFS is a Dana unit or not? I'm curious as to the range of capabilities the Dana AdvanTek offers for IFS. Note - the Dana AT line comes both in solid and IFS so the Bronco is still up in the air, I'm just curious about Dana's IFS capabilities in the event it goes that direction.

That's really more a limitation of the suspension than of the driveline. "Moon buggies" are independent and have great articulation, but no major auto manufacturer will ever try to sell one, the consumer base just isn't worth it. Side-by-sides do it, but they don't have convenient ingress/egress or people/cargo space that most consumers demand.

To have a body that is aesthetically pleasing and multipurpose (like an SUV) the economical choice is solid axle.

 

[mikonrad]

That's really more a limitation of the suspension than of the driveline

I see, so the only part Dana may be involved in is the CV shafts (driveline) for a front IFS? I just wasn't sure the extent Dana mfgs the front end on an IFS.

 

[OX1]

Moon buggies most certainly do not have independent suspension, they are solid axle. No one runs independent suspension in competitive rock crawling.

They do rock "bouncing"

 

[OX1]

No one runs independent suspension in competitive rock crawling.

I'm a solid axle guy all the way, but it's hard not to give credit watching that rig.

Anyway, you said no one runs it competitive. Now if you meant pure rock CRAWLING,
or most don't run it, well that's different.

Have many in KOH too

Money maker still competing too.



Would have been nice to see Tim take it all the way with IRS and
especially rear steer (which he is a master of, even back in the early Pirate days)

 

[OX1]

I am talking about actual rock crawling like W.E. Rock.

Understood, then I agree.........

Sponsored