2.7L w/ manual trans (is Ford listening?)

[stickshifter]

“Close range transmission”
The 7 speed ford has. Is 6.615 range excluding the crawler. 10.154 range with the crawler.

Close range means 5.0 range or smaller. Meaning sure you’ll get the low gears but likely no OD. Meaning bad high way milage. Meaning won’t pass EPA standards.

It’s not just about “engineering” a transmission to handle the power. (Which any additional cost would be passed on to customer). It’s also about passing EPA testing. Which cost a lot of money. Roughly $20,000 EACH test.

Add all that up. Now ford would have to charge MORE for a manual than an automatic transmission for the 2.7. Cutting down the take rate even more.

All and all it’s just not worth fords time

Just like to point out. You CANNOT get a light truck or any SUV with a manual with over 300lbft in the USA. Aside from the bronco.
Bronco 310lbft
Frontier 281lbft (special order only may be gone for next generation)
Wrangler/ Gladiator 260lbft
Tacoma 265lbft
Crosstreck 176lbft

That’s all you can get if you don’t want a sedan/coupe manual in USA.

Yeah, but I think you are drawing the wrong conclusion from the limited MT offerings here in the U.S. Up until 2018, Ram offered a manual in the 2500 diesel; the Cummins when paired with the MT produced 650 lb/ft of torque (I know I'm referencing a heavy duty truck, not a light truck that you are talking about). It didn't sell well, but I'd argue that this was - in part - because you could get a Ram 2500 with something like 850 lb/ft of torque when paired with a 6-speed auto, and around 930 lb/ft of torque in the high-output version of the Cummins found in the Ram 3500 (mated to an Aisin auto). Just like with the new Bronco - a buyer would have to opt for the lower-powered vehicle to get a manual. That will drive many buyers away from the manual. But my real point is that manual transmissions can be built to handle high torque. We also see manuals capable of handling high power in sports cars like the hell-cat powered Dodge Challenger (700 lb/ft), the Dodge Viper (600 lb/ft), the Audi S4 (369 lb/ft), the Audi R8 (406 lb/ft), some BMWs, etc. Again, I know these are not light trucks (and some are no longer in production), but these are examples of high-powered manual transmission vehicles sold in the U.S. So, there is no technical obstacle to putting a more robust MT in the Bronco that could handle the 2.7 engine. From the beginning, if Ford had sought to develop a manual transmission that would work with both the 2.3 and the 2.7, the investment would not have been significantly different than developing a manual option that would only work with the 2.3, and the end-price for the consumer would be a bit more than the current manual ($1,000 more?), but still lower than an auto transmission.

But I think you are probably correct - Ford will not produce a Bronco with a MT 2.7

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[FirstOnRaceDay]

Ok this is a very interesting point, and one that I've not heard made before. So are you saying that there are some sort of US regulations that require manufacturers like Ford to stay below the "300lbft" limit you mention? If that's the case it would appear that there is essentially no possible way to assume that Ford would even have the capability (based on whatever regulations you are referring to) to offer the manual transmission mated up to the 2.7L V6 engine.

there is no regulation saying you can’t Make a truck suv cuv With that Im just pointing out. That the bronco is the most powerful manual truck/suv/suv with a manual you can buy. Everything else is a coupe/sedan.

also pointing out that those are the ONLY 5 vehicles you can get with. Manual that aren’t cars. (Crosstrec is a crossover its really a lifted hatch back) but the point is COMBINED I don’t think those 5 vehicles cross 30,000 a year In sales. Adding the bronco WONT a increase that number. Simply spread it out over more vehicles.

thats my whole point. Why ford won’t offer more than 1 manual.
1 it’s already the most powerful.
2 the market is too small.

 

[Elvis]

there is no regulation saying you can’t Make a truck suv cuv With that Im just pointing out. That the bronco is the most powerful manual truck/suv/suv with a manual you can buy. Everything else is a coupe/sedan.

also pointing out that those are the ONLY 5 vehicles you can get with. Manual that aren’t cars. (Crosstrec is a crossover its really a lifted hatch back) but the point is COMBINED I don’t think those 5 vehicles cross 30,000 a year In sales. Adding the bronco WONT a increase that number. Simply spread it out over more vehicles.

thats my whole point. Why ford won’t offer more than 1 manual.
1 it’s already the most powerful.
2 the market is too small.

Yeah that makes a lot of sense. And if the bean counters are already seeing these numbers, why would Ford push the manual into an already small segment just to get an additional small number of sales with the Sasquatch package and the 2.7L V6 engine. I hate to say it, but it does make a lot of sense from a numbers stand point.

 

[MaverickMan]

Yeah but from a burnouts are more fun i a manual standpoint, it make more sense to not even produce an automatic.

 

[Raptor911]

Ford will have to delay the release of the Bronco for 2 more years if you guys really want a manual with the 2.7L 6.

Given that they the lost 5 billion in the 2nd quarter let's just lose more billions and then the Bronco will never be released.

;(

 

[Cookieck]

also pointing out that those are the ONLY 5 vehicles you can get with. Manual that aren’t cars. (Crosstrec is a crossover its really a lifted hatch back) but the point is COMBINED I don’t think those 5 vehicles cross 30,000 a year In sales. Adding the bronco WONT a increase that number. Simply spread it out over more vehicles.

While I get your sentiment here, I do think they sell more than 30k a year total. The wrangler alone tends to have a lot higher percent manuals, not sure bout most recent years but it’s typically claimed to be around 15% and pretty steady. Production numbers for last few years are over 200k a year, so that’s 30k of manuals each year just for the wrangler. Gladiator probably take some sales from wrangler so say 30k for both combined. Crosstrek was around 6% manuals, but at over 100k/yr that’s still over 6K. You also left out the Tacoma as one of the vehicles that’s not a car with a manual. At over 200k/yr sold even a low percent manual there is still several thousand. Hyundai also has a new SUV with a manual on the base model. So I would say manuals sales per year would likely be more like 50-60k or more for suvs/trucks, and considering the limited options/capabilities that’s really not that bad. Some car models sell less over multiple years regardless of transmission. Also regarding your previous comment about the testing being expensive, if it is indeed 20k for one test, then swaying a single person to buy that wouldn’t buy a bronco because of no manual with the 2.7 would pay for that test. Or multiple people upgrading from the 2.3 to get a manual 2.7 would pay for one test. Either way, 20k is a small price when even low volume is several thousand sales. The rest of the costs associated would be the worry, not the testing.

 

[stickshifter]

“Close range transmission”
The 7 speed ford has. Is 6.615 range excluding the crawler. 10.154 range with the crawler.

Close range means 5.0 range or smaller. Meaning sure you’ll get the low gears but likely no OD. Meaning bad high way milage. Meaning won’t pass EPA standards.

It’s not just about “engineering” a transmission to handle the power. (Which any additional cost would be passed on to customer). It’s also about passing EPA testing. Which cost a lot of money. Roughly $20,000 EACH test.

Add all that up. Now ford would have to charge MORE for a manual than an automatic transmission for the 2.7. Cutting down the take rate even more.

All and all it’s just not worth fords time

Just like to point out. You CANNOT get a light truck or any SUV with a manual with over 300lbft in the USA. Aside from the bronco.
Bronco 310lbft
Frontier 281lbft (special order only may be gone for next generation)
Wrangler/ Gladiator 260lbft
Tacoma 265lbft
Crosstreck 176lbft

That’s all you can get if you don’t want a sedan/coupe manual in USA.

Actually, the Rockland 6-speed manual transmission I mentioned has two overdrive gears:

"Designed to replace traditional balky-shifting, wide-ratio truck transmissions with the smooth shifting, closer-ratio transmission, the RSG 4×4 TRANZILLA transforms the 4×4 driving experience. You have the perfect gear ratio for any situation right at your fingertips. Effortless up- and downshifts ensure that you have the right gear for climbing that hill or pulling out to pass. Plus, the two overdrive gears provide improved fuel economy and reduced powertrain vibration for freeway driving."

https://www.motorator.com/blog/general-automotive/rsg-tranzilla-tremec-6-speed-conversion/

 

[FirstOnRaceDay]

Actually, the Rockland 6-speed manual transmission I mentioned has two overdrive gears:

"Designed to replace traditional balky-shifting, wide-ratio truck transmissions with the smooth shifting, closer-ratio transmission, the RSG 4×4 TRANZILLA transforms the 4×4 driving experience. You have the perfect gear ratio for any situation right at your fingertips. Effortless up- and downshifts ensure that you have the right gear for climbing that hill or pulling out to pass. Plus, the two overdrive gears provide improved fuel economy and reduced powertrain vibration for freeway driving."

https://www.motorator.com/blog/general-automotive/rsg-tranzilla-tremec-6-speed-conversion/

First gear is not even 3:1! Good luck moving anything with that with out a Dana 60.

While I get your sentiment here, I do think they sell more than 30k a year total. The wrangler alone tends to have a lot higher percent manuals, not sure bout most recent years but it’s typically claimed to be around 15% and pretty steady. Production numbers for last few years are over 200k a year, so that’s 30k of manuals each year just for the wrangler. Gladiator probably take some sales from wrangler so say 30k for both combined. Crosstrek was around 6% manuals, but at over 100k/yr that’s still over 6K. You also left out the Tacoma as one of the vehicles that’s not a car with a manual. At over 200k/yr sold even a low percent manual there is still several thousand. Hyundai also has a new SUV with a manual on the base model. So I would say manuals sales per year would likely be more like 50-60k or more for suvs/trucks, and considering the limited options/capabilities that’s really not that bad. Some car models sell less over multiple years regardless of transmission. Also regarding your previous comment about the testing being expensive, if it is indeed 20k for one test, then swaying a single person to buy that wouldn’t buy a bronco because of no manual with the 2.7 would pay for that test. Or multiple people upgrading from the 2.3 to get a manual 2.7 would pay for one test. Either way, 20k is a small price when even low volume is several thousand sales. The rest of the costs associated would be the worry, not the testing.

Take rate on wrangler is close to 12% give or take depending on year. But gladiator ate into those sales. Jeep didn’t gain any customers with that.

That leaves Tacoma. Which is close to 5%

So it might be a little higher but not much. And it’s trending down.

 

[Buckin’Around]

The only reason I see the bronco coming in manual is because the wrangler does. Also, people who want the 2.7 most likely don’t want manual. Just my guess.

 

[DrewBronc21]

The only reason I see the bronco coming in manual is because the wrangler does. Also, people who want the 2.7 most likely don’t want manual. Just my guess.

There are thousands of people who want the 2.7 and Manual. Probably almost everyone who wants a manual would prefer it with the 2.7. There’s a petition on the forum.

 

[Dads_bronze_bronco]

There are thousands of people who want the 2.7 and Manual. Probably almost everyone who wants a manual would prefer it with the 2.7. There’s a petition on the forum.

Yep - want both - even losing the front dig to get it.

Instead, to get the 2.7 we have to pay $1K + for a transmission we don’t want (and a loss of control).

 

[Squatch]

Don't forget the class action lawsuit over another manual transmission in a Ford. Maybe we should blame the Mustang crowd for Ford being hesitant about manuals?

The lowest spec of the Getrag, which we are getting, doesn't have a lot of safety margin for the 2.7's torque with the stock tune. Also, that transmission won't just bolt up to the 2.7L.

Here's a fun article about how one company invested over $370,000,000 into a plant for a transmission (or two?). Wanna divide that by 20-30k unit sales and pay even a small profit margin? Tooling, custom machines, labor averages an easy $100k/yr when you include benefits, etc. Even if you could imagine that it would only add 10% to a manufacturer's cost to mate a transmission up to a different engine, that'd be $37M in this case. That's over $1200/unit @30k units before assembly and road testing.
https://www.mmsonline.com/articles/the-auto-industry-gear-making

Another article about the cost to design and develop an entirely new vehicle:
https://www.autoblog.com/2010/07/27/why-does-it-cost-so-much-for-automakers-to-develop-new-models/

***I love manual transmissions and would totally rock one with the 2.7L, but I can't blame Ford. I blame the market for changing. I'll also be rocking the manual and get the 2.3 tuned and if the parts to beef up the transmission are actually available to the consumer and not only made at a big auto manufacturer's bid, then I might look into that as the years go by.

 

[FirstOnRaceDay]

There are thousands of people who want the 2.7 and Manual. Probably almost everyone who wants a manual would prefer it with the 2.7. There’s a petition on the forum.

It’s been stated before. Everyone claims they would buy the manual but most would settle for the auto once it came down to the end.

Sure first year initial sales from enthusiasts would be good. But the next 8+ years after that. Flat. Nothing. Sure thousands... as in like 5-10,000. Not enough for ford to make any money.

 

[1st4rd]

Ford has gotten a crazy amount of great press with this manual- crawler gear has captured people’s interest. There will be more manual options in the future but I doubt it will be with 2.7. My guess is that in a few years we see a “boosted” 2.3 hybrid with this transmission. That will get us more hp and great low end torque AND help with the MPG. They may even be able to add some cool low speed features that are fully electric. The best thing we can do now is buy the manual option in good numbers and cross fingers for when the hybrids arrive in a few years.

 

[eatworksleepdie]

Probably not going to happen. The manual probably can't handle the additional power. The autos are just to efficient, strong and programable now.

I bet it could handle it, but might come close to pushing it to the limits of a stock flywheel/pressure plate/clutch disc. I've put 250hp through a stock 92' VW GTI transmission that originally was mated with a 100hp motor. Granted, I put a 6 puck unsprung clutch disc, and upgraded the pressure plate and lightened flywheel, but the internal gearing itself worked well. It also has a limited slip differential in it, which is a huge help putting down that kind of power in such a light car.
It's probably because Ford already has those parts tooled using them on another vehicle, or are able to piece meal together from this and that, so it'll cost them more $$ to beef up the wearables mentioned above.
Guaranteed there will be an aftermarket place somewhere eventually that will offer a manual transmission that will mate up with the 2.7l, or will find another trans from another car that will bolt up with little to no modifications.

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