7 speed manual rev matching?

crowdpleazer

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And how exactly do you figure that? Do you use traction control or turn it off every time? Power steering? Electric starter? Sounds pretty scummy to me. I thought we were driving here. I guess I misunderstood.

I actually really like the feature on my M3. If I want to rev match and not have the computer do it, I put in in Sport+ mode and it’s disabled. In fact, all I have to do is push my M2 button twice (second to confirm traction control is disabled). Simple as that.

How many people in his thread have actually driven or owned a vehicle that has this feature? Yeah, anyways. Carry on bench racers!
Power steering and electric starter aren't driver aids that make up for lack of skill. Traction control and rev matching computer are for people with driving that lacks skill or are too lazy to learn.





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jaspercasidino

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Power steering and electric starter aren't driver aids that make up for lack of skill. Traction control and rev matching computer are for people with driving that lacks skill or are too lazy to learn.
Saying someone is peak scum for using those kinds of features is just plain absurd which is why I responded with those absurd examples. It seems you draw the line at driver aids that compensate for skill. Others might be wanting a more "pure" experience without the need for "nanny systems" that take away from the driving experience that they want. That is fine for people to have preferences, but to call someone peak scum for using a driver assistance feature is ridiculous.

If you haven't driven a car with rev matching, I suggest you do. It is a nice feature that other users have posted liking as well. I don't know if the Bronco will have rev matching or not (my Focus RS didn't) but if it does, I hope it is easily disengaged for those who don't want it. Same goes for traction control, hill-assist or any other feature that isn't 3 pedals, a stick and wheel for those who want it that way.
 

Lakelife36

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Saying someone is peak scum for using those kinds of features is just plain absurd which is why I responded with those absurd examples. It seems you draw the line at driver aids that compensate for skill. Others might be wanting a more "pure" experience without the need for "nanny systems" that take away from the driving experience that they want. That is fine for people to have preferences, but to call someone peak scum for using a driver assistance feature is ridiculous.

If you haven't driven a car with rev matching, I suggest you do. It is a nice feature that other users have posted liking as well. I don't know if the Bronco will have rev matching or not (my Focus RS didn't) but if it does, I hope it is easily disengaged for those who don't want it. Same goes for traction control, hill-assist or any other feature that isn't 3 pedals, a stick and wheel for those who want it that way.
More of this please everybody
 

The_Phew

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Frankly, I don't have strong opinions on software rev-matching, but REV HANG can ruin the driving experience for me. Every modern manual transmission car has it, to some degree (for emissions reasons), but it's particularly awful in certain vehicles (I test drove a 6MT Taco and the rev hang was so bad I turned around and went back to the dealer after a block).

Rev-matching smooths out downshifts, but rev hang forces you to choose between fast+jerky or slow+smooth upshifts.
 

Jchetty

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So I’m a little confused on this “rev matching”. We are talking about like in a downshift to blip the throttle enough to get to the same RPM that the downshift will bring the engine to, that way when clutch is engaged and disengaged during downshift the engine remains at the same speed right?
Exactly. That is a great understanding. Now you can also rev-match downshift during braking. This is called heel-to-toe downshifting. So imagine you are cruising at 65mph in 5th gear and come to a corner that you have to slow down to 30 mph.

You brake and eventually push in the clutch because you won’t be in 5th gear at 30 mph. So while your foot is on the brake, you use the same foot that is braking to blip the throttle (usually twice). This allows you to actually get on the throttle much earlier so you can rotate the car with throttle.

Doing so allows you to corner sharper as you generally want to complete all your braking in a straight line like motorcycle riding. Obviously there are times, techniques, or cars where you don’t necessarily want to complete all of your braking while in a straight line. But for general day-to-day driving, it is a good habit to get into. And this is the usually the first way your learn to brake in entry motorsports.

I always rev match downshift And prefer to do it myself. Kind of the point of “manual”. No need to heal toe unless on a track and my Bronco won’t be on a track
Not true. Heel-to-toe can be used for more than speed. Getting on the throttle earlier can help you modulate your angle of approach. Also on slippery surfaces, esp snow, getting off the brake earlier means less chance to lock them up. You can’t lock brakes if you aren’t using them.

Remember that. It is very important. If you get into the habit of heel-to-toe downshifting, you will naturally complete your braking earlier.

Also by being in gear, you can use the gas to help turn the car. If you are braking, eventually you will push in the clutch to get into a lower gear. Without heel-to-toe, you are basically braking while the car is in neutral.

Imagine being in an automatic. When you brake, anytime you hit the gas while in gear car there is response. Now imagine the same car moving and you brake while the car is neutral. If you hit the gas, the engines revs but there is no reponse.

Rev-match downshifting preserves response.
 

Hkak45

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Exactly. That is a great understanding. Now you can also rev-match downshift during braking. This is called heel-to-toe downshifting. So imagine you are cruising at 65mph in 5th gear and come to a corner that you have to slow down to 30 mph.
Thank you for clarifying. I’ve always been taught to do this since a young age so just always “rev match” and assumed that was the only way to shift to be honest. I never put much thought into it and I’ve been driving manual for almost 20 years on and off. Now I need to go try shifting without doing that.lol I would assume without rev matching it would be jerky when shifting though.
 

Jchetty

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Thank you for clarifying. I’ve always been taught to do this since a young age so just always “rev match” and assumed that was the only way to shift to be honest. I never put much thought into it and I’ve been driving manual for almost 20 years on and off. Now I need to go try shifting without doing that.lol I would assume without rev matching it would be jerky when shifting though.
If you do it without rev-matching, just remember to let the clutch out slowly and you will be fine. That is why rev match downshifting is nice.

You can get off the clutch as fast as possible. Without rev-match downshifting, you have to slow down how fast you let your foot off of your clutch. This (rev-match downshifting) saves your clutch.
 
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Lakelife36

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Frankly, I don't have strong opinions on software rev-matching, but REV HANG can ruin the driving experience for me. Every modern manual transmission car has it, to some degree (for emissions reasons), but it's particularly awful in certain vehicles (I test drove a 6MT Taco and the rev hang was so bad I turned around and went back to the dealer after a block).

Rev-matching smooths out downshifts, but rev hang forces you to choose between fast+jerky or slow+smooth upshifts.
That sucks to hear about the Taco. Do both cycles use port injection or just one of them?
 

crowdpleazer

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If you do it without rev-matching, just remember to let the clutch out slowly and you will be fine. That is why rev match downshifting is nice.

You can get off the clutch as fast as possible. Without rev-match downshifting, you have to slow down how fast you let your foot off of your clutch. This (rev-match downshifting) saves your clutch.
Please do not do it this way. This will wear the clutch out a lot faster than if you rev match.
 

The_Phew

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That sucks to hear about the Taco. Do both cycles use port injection or just one of them?
Since the Atkinson cycle mode for that engine is just a cam profile that leaves the intake valves open during the first part of the compression stroke, the port injectors are probably disabled under low-load conditions (or else the engine would blow fuel back into the intake manifold on every compression stroke). The Taco's engine+gearing makes it such a dog, it's probably rarely in Atkinson mode anyway (you have to flog it to get anywhere). There is nothing about the engine's ability to run in Atkinson mode that precludes Toyota from tuning it to be responsive; Mazda uses the same tech and their cars are 'Zoom-zoom'.

The Taco is just a hot mess of poor powertrain design/tuning decisions; it was hard to isolate the annoyance of the rev hang over the lazy throttle programming, mushy clutch delay valve, floppy shifter, etc. As bad as the 6MT Taco is, the 6AT is MUCH MUCH worse in terms of responsiveness.
 
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Lakelife36

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Since the Atkinson cycle mode for that engine is just a cam profile that leaves the intake valves open during the first part of the compression stroke, the port injectors are probably disabled under low-load conditions (or else the engine would blow fuel back into the intake manifold on every compression stroke). The Taco's engine+gearing makes it such a dog, it's probably rarely in Atkinson mode anyway (you have to flog it to get anywhere). There is nothing about the engine's ability to run in Atkinson mode that precludes Toyota from tuning it to be responsive; Mazda uses the same tech and their cars are 'Zoom-zoom'.

The Taco is just a hot mess of poor powertrain design/tuning decisions; it was hard to isolate the annoyance of the rev hang over the lazy throttle programming, mushy clutch delay valve, floppy shifter, etc. As bad as the 6MT Taco is, the 6AT is MUCH MUCH worse in terms of responsiveness.
Our work uses mostly Tacos and we have a bunch of both second and third gens, all autos. We were blown away by how terribly the thirds ran compared to the seconds. It's like no one bothered to make sure that the engine and tranny functioned together.
 

Ricepuddin

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I am in the opposite camp on this. My BMW M2 has this feature, and I would have sold it long ago if I wasn't able to find a way to disable it. I want my manual to be a manual, not a semi-manual.
Does he your m2 do the dumb burble shit also? My 340i does that and it sounds like my cart is dating every time I down shift
 

The_Phew

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Our work uses mostly Tacos and we have a bunch of both second and third gens, all autos. We were blown away by how terribly the thirds ran compared to the seconds. It's like no one bothered to make sure that the engine and tranny functioned together.
That's what lack of competition does to a vehicle; same reason the Wrangler STILL can't track in a straight line and dumps water into the cabin every time you open a front door after it's rained.
 

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