74Weld Bronco Portals now available!

[SierraBronco]

Understand... But even with catastrophic failure, The loss of your life is not a very high probability. YES that would be worse than anything they stand to lose... But my point is more to the financial question. It could total your vehicle. And on their side they could crash the entire company with law suits.... So technically you have more to lose but... I think you understand what I am trying to say. It is very much to their benefit to make this right. My guess is that they will come through.

Absolutely agree. Which makes it all the more peculiar that they would offer to warranty our portals, but only if a shop did the work. A shop that was 600 miles away. I did think maybe they assumed the wrong location for the first suggestion, and after clarifying the location of the bronco, the next shop recommended was...800 miles away! This is not a joke. We know they will loosen in less than 500 miles and they pick shops that far away? They provided no schedule for how often the bolts should be checked. Is it 50 miles? Is it 200 miles? We know they will loosen in less than 500 but 74W refuses to answer when I ask if the vehicle is safe to drive with the current brackets. Just that the instructions need to be followed (the instructions stating a dowel must be used. Which, as we know, can't be done) and they will only honor the warranty if a shop does the work. A shop either 600 or 800 miles away.

Nothing is wrong with the parts I've installed. And so far it seems like a previously authorized shop couldn't install a steering rack or bleed the brakes. Not sure who installed the portals for the guy that lost his hose recently...but either way, I'm supposed to trust these guys because they race? Fuck off.

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[SierraBronco]

Not if they're sending you Grade 12.9 bolts. They must be worried about stripping the aluminum threads (which might very well happen if the aluminum quality is low).

Bolted Joints that need to withstand vibration should have bolts tensioned to at least 60% of the bolts tensile strength. That is how you should spec the torque, and it needs to be 45 ft-lb to achieve the ~10,000lb of tension in a Grade 12.9. M10x1.5 is a thread size I know very intimately and performed months worth of testing on (threading into Aluminum, no less).

I'm not sure what grade they are. Don't seem like anything fancy beyond standard stainless steel cap bolts but I can't be certain.

 

[mpeugeot]

Absolutely agree. Which makes it all the more peculiar that they would offer to warranty our portals, but only if a shop did the work. A shop that was 600 miles away. I did think maybe they assumed the wrong location for the first suggestion, and after clarifying the location of the bronco, the next shop recommended was...800 miles away! This is not a joke. We know they will loosen in less than 500 miles and they pick shops that far away? They provided no schedule for how often the bolts should be checked. Is it 50 miles? Is it 200 miles? We know they will loosen in less than 500 but 74W refuses to answer when I ask if the vehicle is safe to drive with the current brackets. Just that the instructions need to be followed (the instructions stating a dowel must be used. Which, as we know, can't be done) and they will only honor the warranty if a shop does the work. A shop either 600 or 800 miles away.

Nothing is wrong with the parts I've installed. And so far it seems like a previously authorized shop couldn't install a steering rack or bleed the brakes. Not sure who installed the portals for the guy that lost his hose recently...but either way, I'm supposed to trust these guys because they race? Fuck off.

Well, that's why the distance is not an issue, you're supposed to trailer your "race" vehicle there...

That’s just totally crazy. Would they tell a race team that they needed to go to one of their trusted mechanics 600 miles away? I don't think so.

 

[SierraBronco]

Well, that's why the distance is not an issue, you're supposed to trailer your "race" vehicle there...

That’s just totally crazy. Would they tell a race team that they needed to go to one of their trusted mechanics 600 miles away? I don't think so.

Thinking about @5GENIDN comment about the likelihood of dying and okay-time to share what pisses me off so much about all this. Yes, with modern vehicles we are certainly protected much better than vehicles of old. That said, my wife was in an accident a few years ago. Tee boned by a drunk driver. Only 35-40 mph. She was in a fucking wheelchair for almost a year and now has a nerve condition that she will likely have forever. So yeah…not dead. But not exactly a fun time. Fourwheeling has been HUGE for her to gain trust in vehicles. She’s never asked for a material thing. Seriously. Not ever. So when she started getting into this and mentioned wanting to keep up with a lifted two door on 37’s? I went all out. Obviously. And 74weld promoted themselves as the ultimate solution to gain the best of both worlds as far as capability and drive ability is concerned. With the best in precision and engineering you can find in the offroad community. Okay…mistakes happen. But downplaying it like it’s no big deal? Get fucked. And then suggesting these preposterous drives that are farther than the unknown distance that the bolts will loosen at, all while refusing to say whether it’s safe to do so or offer other accommodations, and act like I’m the one being difficult? Fuck allllllll the way off with your fucking bullshit.

But, ya know-You must follow the directions that are physically impossible to follow.

 

[5GENIDN]

Absolutely agree. Which makes it all the more peculiar that they would offer to warranty our portals, but only if a shop did the work. A shop that was 600 miles away. I did think maybe they assumed the wrong location for the first suggestion, and after clarifying the location of the bronco, the next shop recommended was...800 miles away! This is not a joke. We know they will loosen in less than 500 miles and they pick shops that far away? They provided no schedule for how often the bolts should be checked. Is it 50 miles? Is it 200 miles? We know they will loosen in less than 500 but 74W refuses to answer when I ask if the vehicle is safe to drive with the current brackets. Just that the instructions need to be followed (the instructions stating a dowel must be used. Which, as we know, can't be done) and they will only honor the warranty if a shop does the work. A shop either 600 or 800 miles away.

Nothing is wrong with the parts I've installed. And so far it seems like a previously authorized shop couldn't install a steering rack or bleed the brakes. Not sure who installed the portals for the guy that lost his hose recently...but either way, I'm supposed to trust these guys because they race? Fuck off.

Telling me to "FO" is not very friendly... I know you are upset. Understandably. I have not nor will I ever tell you to trust them because they race..... I never even suggested you should trust them.

What I did was offer my perspective. I am sorry that upset you.

 

[Razorback]

Telling me to "FO" is not very friendly... I know you are upset. Understandably. I have not nor will I ever tell you to trust them because they race..... I never even suggested you should trust them.

What I did was offer my perspective. I am sorry that upset you.

I'm 99.9% sure he was directing it to 74Weld's response to his concerns.

 

[5GENIDN]

Thinking about @5GENIDN comment about the likelihood of dying and okay-time to share what pisses me off so much about all this. Yes, with modern vehicles we are certainly protected much better than vehicles of old. That said, my wife was in an accident a few years ago. Tee boned by a drunk driver. Only 35-40 mph. She was in a fucking wheelchair for almost a year and now has a nerve condition that she will likely have forever. So yeah…not dead. But not exactly a fun time. Fourwheeling has been HUGE for her to gain trust in vehicles. She’s never asked for a material thing. Seriously. Not ever. So when she started getting into this and mentioned wanting to keep up with a lifted two door on 37’s? I went all out. Obviously. And 74weld promoted themselves as the ultimate solution to gain the best of both worlds as far as capability and drive ability is concerned. With the best in precision and engineering you can find in the offroad community. Okay…mistakes happen. But downplaying it like it’s no big deal? Get fucked. And then suggesting these preposterous drives that are farther than the unknown distance that the bolts will loosen at, all while refusing to say whether it’s safe to do so or offer other accommodations, and act like I’m the one being difficult? Fuck allllllll the way off with your fucking bullshit.

But, ya know-You must follow the directions that are physically impossible to follow.

I am not down playing anything..... It is a BIG deal.... You and I have had that conversation about the distance... You KNOW that I believe that is unacceptable and I think they NEED to come up with someone closer. Period.

I know you are angry. Rightfully. I get it. I do have a different perspective. I have not had your problems. Just because you are angry does not mean I have to be. I am not telling you not to be angry. And at no point in time is my expirence or opinion Bullshit any more or any less than your is.

 

[SierraBronco]

I am not down playing anything..... It is a BIG deal.... You and I have had that conversation about the distance... You KNOW that I believe that is unacceptable and I think they NEED to come up with someone closer. Period.

I know you are angry. Rightfully. I get it. I do have a different perspective. I have not had your problems. Just because you are angry does not mean I have to be. I am not telling you not to be angry. And at no point in time is my expirence or opinion Bullshit any more or any less than your is.

Yeah, I realized on the way home that it might have read like I was directing this response at you. 74Weld seemed to be downplaying it in their email. And it is not an issue to be taken lightly.

 

[SierraBronco]

I'm 99.9% sure he was directing it to 74Weld's response to his concerns.

Yes. This.

I could have worded that better. My apologies to @5GENIDN

 

[5GENIDN]

Yeah, I realized on the way home that this might have read like I was directing this at you. 74Weld seemed to be downplaying it in their email. And it is not an issue to be taken lightly.

We are all good man! You are right, not an issue to be taken lightly. I personally do not think they are taking it lightly. I understand that you do based on the emails... More than one. I get it. I could be wrong about them. I just have not crossed that line yet myself.

 

[87-Z28]

Here is the bracket from @ScLeCo that was damaged. This bracket had poor tolerances and thus not much bearing surface area. The two yellow areas represents the available bearing surface for tight tolerances. The red areas highlight the areas the took load. The bolts carried most of the load and failed. Some bearing contact damage is also seen on brackets. From this image, a significantly greater bearing area is required.

the shear pin area is similar to a single bolt. I do not think that adding a tight tolerance shear pin here will be anywhere near sufficient or do very much. The entire yellow bearing surfaces need to take the load. As was observed by the design that @5GENIDN showed. No local hot spots were observed.

a proper bolted connection needs to be designed to ensure sufficient clamping force under vibration loading in order to maintain adequate bearing surfaces. hopefully they will do this. Just adding pin won’t cut it. Lots of tweaks can be made to bolts, washers, etc… as shown in pic by @snacktime… but if significantly more clamping force is required this is typically achieved by more bolts or bigger bolts, as snacktime said.

 

[SierraBronco]

Here is the bracket from @ScLeCo that was damaged. This bracket had poor tolerances and thus not much bearing surface area. The two yellow areas represents the available bearing surface for tight tolerances. The red areas highlight the areas the took load. The bolts carried most of the load and failed. Some bearing contact damage is also seen on brackets. From this image, a significantly greater bearing area is required.

the shear pin area is similar to a single bolt. I do not think that adding a tight tolerance shear pin here will be anywhere near sufficient or do very much. The entire yellow bearing surfaces need to take the load. As was observed by the design that @5GENIDN showed. No local hot spots were observed.

a proper bolted connection needs to be designed to ensure sufficient clamping force under vibration loading in order to maintain adequate bearing surfaces. hopefully they will do this. Just adding pin won’t cut it. Lots of tweaks can be made to bolts, washers, etc… as shown in pic by @snacktime… but if significantly more clamping force is required this is typically achieved by more bolts or bigger bolts, as snacktime said.

Man. The unsettling thing about this example is that it’s a picture of @ScLeCo failed rear portal. After we initially “fixed” our rears they haven’t loosened. They were loose the first time at 200 miles or whatever but since then I’d pull everything and check the paint marks-they didn’t move so I left them alone. So maybe 1700-1800 miles? Still factory bolts and washers, just with red loctite. 262, in fact. Not 263 until recently. Pulled them last week (I think) and while there’s no evidence of load being taken on by the brackets like there is on front passenger, I chalked that up to how much tighter they are against the box. Couldn’t find any evidence of damage, not that my visual observations mean anything. It’s a very different situation when comparing our back portals to the front, so that makes me wonder what was different between his rear portals and ours…our rears are (were) the ones I’m not worried about!

 

[mpeugeot]

Thinking about @5GENIDN comment about the likelihood of dying and okay-time to share what pisses me off so much about all this. Yes, with modern vehicles we are certainly protected much better than vehicles of old. That said, my wife was in an accident a few years ago. Tee boned by a drunk driver. Only 35-40 mph. She was in a fucking wheelchair for almost a year and now has a nerve condition that she will likely have forever. So yeah…not dead. But not exactly a fun time. Fourwheeling has been HUGE for her to gain trust in vehicles. She’s never asked for a material thing. Seriously. Not ever. So when she started getting into this and mentioned wanting to keep up with a lifted two door on 37’s? I went all out. Obviously. And 74weld promoted themselves as the ultimate solution to gain the best of both worlds as far as capability and drive ability is concerned. With the best in precision and engineering you can find in the offroad community. Okay…mistakes happen. But downplaying it like it’s no big deal? Get fucked. And then suggesting these preposterous drives that are farther than the unknown distance that the bolts will loosen at, all while refusing to say whether it’s safe to do so or offer other accommodations, and act like I’m the one being difficult? Fuck allllllll the way off with your fucking bullshit.

But, ya know-You must follow the directions that are physically impossible to follow.

As someone who has nerve damage in 3 separate places (none of which were due to my own stupidity); I can really empathize with you on this.

She's made a remarkable recovery! Would have never known if you had not said as much. That said, it's a beautiful thing that you are going all out on this for her.

It will get all sorted out eventually, for now, do your best to enjoy the journey (as frustrating as it may be at times). I know from watching all this unfold that your wife really has appreciated everything that you are doing with her.

 

[SierraBronco]

As someone who has nerve damage in 3 separate places (none of which were due to my own stupidity); I can really empathize with you on this.

She's made a remarkable recovery! Would have never known if you had not said as much. That said, it's a beautiful thing that you are going all out on this for her.

It will get all sorted out eventually, for now, do your best to enjoy the journey (as frustrating as it may be at times). I know from watching all this unfold that your wife really has appreciated everything that you are doing with her.

We don’t talk about it because it’s not something that needs to be focused on as a topic of conversation. Don’t want her wheeling journey to be associated with having “a condition” as that isn’t what this is about. The only time it’s even mentioned is if she’s having so much trouble from it that she can’t drive or feels that the pain will prevent her from being able to focus properly. It’s not an issue for driving around town or the interstate, but offroading can be highly stressful. She knows that and before we go out must decide if it is going to be a problem or not. And even then we’ll just say she’s feeling under the weather or something. The first time I took her to Moab in the bronco she would literally get out for the tiniest things that she wouldn’t even consider an obstacle now. And now she’s crushing ridiculous trails like a boss, and not just because she has a badass ride. It takes some nerve to do what she’s done. She started crying reading that response (wanted to make sure she was okay with it being shared) because she has come such a long way when it comes to being able to not just drive, but to do things she never could have imagined doing.

The reason I brought it up was yeah, I made a joke about needing to be alive to continue living, but there are things worse than death. And we have an accessory that could literally fall off without warning and cut the wheel in half. You may not die after crashing at what is effectively a front wheel blowout at 80 mph on 37, 38, or 40 inch tires. But you could be affected for the rest of your life with a painful affliction. Or in her case, it would absolutely wipe out all the progress she has made even if she didn’t get hurt in any capacity. Driving down the road and you roll your car because a company was dragging their feet on fixing a known problem? Fuck!

Spending two grand on getting our own brackets made was wanting to eliminate the problem causing the bracket bolts to loosen. Finding out these brackets were made improperly and that the bolts weren’t the correct length? I don’t know that I’d consider it to be a “bonus” but it was a relief that it wasn’t something I had done wrong and it does seem like 74Weld benefitted from our findings, if what other customers have told me with regard to their conversations with kwin are true.

There’s no need to discuss any litigation that could come as a result of these hypothetical situations. Too many variables and thankfully other customers reached out to warn us of the issue and we didn’t have an accident. And 74weld already seems to be preparing for potential lawsuits by saying “you must follow the attached instructions.” Looks like they’re trying to put the liability on the customer or shop doing the work, even if the instructions can’t be followed.

So when I get an email that says “we understand that you’re upset” no, motherfucker, I don’t think you actually do. Email me again to drive 600 miles on your fucked up brackets and not put it on paper whether they’re safe to drive on or not. Fucking cunts.

 

[87-Z28]

Man. The unsettling thing about this example is that it’s a picture of @ScLeCo failed rear portal. After we initially “fixed” our rears they haven’t loosened. They were loose the first time at 200 miles or whatever but since then I’d pull everything and check the paint marks-they didn’t move so I left them alone. So maybe 1700-1800 miles? Still factory bolts and washers, just with red loctite. 262, in fact. Not 263 until recently. Pulled them last week (I think) and while there’s no evidence of load being taken on by the brackets like there is on front passenger, I chalked that up to how much tighter they are against the box. Couldn’t find any evidence of damage, not that my visual observations mean anything. It’s a very different situation when comparing our back portals to the front, so that makes me wonder what was different between his rear portals and ours…our rears are (were) the ones I’m not worried about!

I do know those are not the fronts. They look way to wide. However, The image of @ScLeCo bracket does nicely show the bearing areas the took all the load. Not sure why but very uneven load distribution on the large main bearing areas. Poor tolerance, inadequate clamping force? Who knows? But shows how f*up this is.

Some of the brackets are clearly behaving well (5gen) some are totally jacked up. I would check mine on all 4 corners and see if there are hot spots of wear on the bearing surfaces or in the bolts bearing areas (threads). I wouldn’t want the bolts carrying any significant shear load, just applying clamping force. I would get with 74weld if abnormal wear is observed.

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