Big hood size, engine optimism ?‍♂️

[Jalisurr]

On turbos, they actually use the waste pressure vs waste heat. If you could come up with a way of using the waste heat (through maybe a mini steam turbine), it would really help the gasoline engines. That would be especially helpful with a hybrid. Just think of all the heat wasted through the radiator..

You mean like the MGU-H on F1 cars? Captures waste heat from the Turbo (sits between the compressor and the turbine) and turns it into electricity for the hybrid system. It can also be used the other way around, using electricity to spin up the turbo and prevent lag.

It is, however, supposedly the single most expensive component on an F1 engine, so it's gonna be a while before we see them on road cars....

https://www.autoevolution.com/news/formula-1-energy-recovery-system-explained-125488.html

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[eBronco]

You mean like the MGU-H on F1 cars? Captures waste heat from the Turbo (sits between the compressor and the turbine) and turns it into electricity for the hybrid system. It can also be used the other way around, using electricity to spin up the turbo and prevent lag.

It is, however, supposedly the single most expensive component on an F1 engine, so it's gonna be a while before we see them on road cars....

Thanks for the link, I did not know it existed, but I have thought about it for years. But, I think this is just using the kinetic energy vs waste heat? How do they convert the heat to electricity?

 

[frinesi2]

Thanks for the link, I did not know it existed, but I have thought about it for years. But, I think this is just using the kinetic energy vs waste heat? How do they convert the heat to electricity?

It's an electric motor between the turbine and compressor. When there is low torque demand, the turbine drives it as a generator. It can also be used to spool the turbo faster as needed.

Mercedes hit close to 50% thermal efficiency a couple years ago on their F1 powerplant.

They're currently (or they were) working on implementing these electric-assist turbos on road car engines.

 

[Jalisurr]

Thanks for the link, I did not know it existed, but I have thought about it for years. But, I think this is just using the kinetic energy vs waste heat? How do they convert the heat to electricity?

You're correct that what it's directly acting against is kinetic energy of the gasses. However (in a well insulated system), capturing the kinetic energy of a gas is essentially the same thing as capturing the thermal energy, and much more efficiently than a thermocouple or something.

The advantage of having the MGU-H is that it can continue to capture the energy of the exhaust gas even when the turbo isn't in demand.

 

[eBronco]

You're correct that what it's directly acting against is kinetic energy of the gasses. However (in a well insulated system), capturing the kinetic energy of a gas is essentially the same thing as capturing the thermal energy, and much more efficiently than a thermocouple or something.

The advantage of having the MGU-H is that it can continue to capture the energy of the exhaust gas even when the turbo isn't in demand.

I hear you, but plenty of waste heat continues to go out the tailpipe and radiator. The MGU-H doesn't appear to be super insulated. Does it have a heat sink?

 

[eBronco]

It's an electric motor between the turbine and compressor. When there is low torque demand, the turbine drives it as a generator. It can also be used to spool the turbo faster as needed.

Mercedes hit close to 50% thermal efficiency a couple years ago on their F1 powerplant.

They're currently (or they were) working on implementing these electric-assist turbos on road car engines.

50% is great. I guess I am behind on some of the new tech. Just like always...

 

[Jalisurr]

I hear you, but plenty of waste heat continues to go out the tailpipe and radiator. The MGU-H doesn't appear to be super insulated. Does it have a heat sink?

The pic I posted is of the component itself with everything stripped away. Really it lives in the V of the engine, under the intake, and is thoroughly heat insulated.

 

[frinesi2]

50% is great. I guess I am behind on some of the new tech. Just like always...

They're pretty amazing feats of engineering. In addition to the MGU-H (which, by the way, means Motor Generator Unit - Heat) they have an MGU-K (Kinetic) which is a motor/generator directly on the crankshaft that can boost power or charge the batteries through regenerative braking.

The gas and brake pedals aren't so much throttle and brakes as they are torque command inputs. The driver says go faster or go slower and the motor controller determines the most efficient way to do that at any given moment based on a ton of variables.

As a result, you have a 1.6 liter V6 making over 1,000 horsepower at close to 50% thermal efficiency.

 

[eBronco]

That is excellent. I really like the idea of normalizing the turbo lag. It would make it feel more like a pure electric car.

I just can't stand all the other gizmos and tech IN the car. It is funny, but I am old school when it comes to mechanical stuff. As long as they harden the cpus and controllers, I feel much better. I don't like the delicate luxury features that I KNOW are going to break sooner rather than later.

It is interesting that I have been thinking about using the waste heat for 30+ years. Maybe I should have gone into engine design.

 

[eBronco]

The pic I posted is of the component itself with everything stripped away. Really it lives in the V of the engine, under the intake, and is thoroughly heat insulated.

Super cool. Just wondering what the reliablity of a mass produced component like this would be. With direct gasoline injection, you always have to worry about fouling up the valves...unless you have a dual system.

 

[eBronco]

 

[frinesi2]

Arguing with an engineer is like wrestling in the mud with a pig. After a while you'll start to realize the pig likes it

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