Sponsored

imaginager

Black Diamond
Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 23, 2020
Threads
7
Messages
210
Reaction score
416
Location
PDX / Oregon
Vehicle(s)
2021 Bronco Black Diamond
Your Bronco Model
Black Diamond
I'm really torn about this, now. On the one hand, having been "In Production" since 7/13 makes me hope that something is being resolved. And I fully understand I haven't been waiting nearly as long as some, and some of them don't even have the MIC top.

The trouble is, we've seen MIC tops delivered that look reasonable. And we've seen MIC tops delivered that look really bad. And we've seen MIC tops delivered that looked reasonable, only to show significant deterioration within 3 weeks.

My speculation is that Ford and the MIC supplier are not changing anything - design or production process (there just hasn't been time for that). Ford is simply trying to select the more reasonable looking MIC tops to mate to trucks before shipping them out.

Assuming the MIC top is what's holding mine up, if my truck is ever completed, shipped, and delivered to my dealer...will I accept it? That's the question. I am very glad I didn't opt for the $50K+ trim; that deliberation is what caused me to delay ordering until January 25th. I was set to go with the Badlands, but talked myself out of it. Just out of respect to the first model year gremlins.

So now the choice (assuming my truck is ever delivered) is whether I want to go out of pocket another, what, $2,500, for a 2-dr soft top? And then, somewhere down the road, another $4-5K for a replacement hard top? Great, now, altogether, I'm out of pocket to the tune of a Badlands. Except I won't have a Badlands.

Or I could (assuming my truck is ever delivered) rock the MIC top and, I cringe at this thought, explain to all of Ford's potential customers why the hard top looks like it's coming apart.

Or...reject the vehicle from the dealer (assuming my truck is ever delivered) and let it go to some uninformed customer.

It's looking like I'll have a lot of time to think about it.
 

da_jokker

Wildtrak
Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 14, 2020
Threads
124
Messages
6,143
Reaction score
7,009
Location
California
Vehicle(s)
Jeep Wrangler JKUR
Your Bronco Model
Wildtrak
Clubs
 
Kind of like paper inside your oil filter... Somehow it manages to hold up but it doesn't give you that warm and fuzzy feeling 🤷
 

da_jokker

Wildtrak
Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 14, 2020
Threads
124
Messages
6,143
Reaction score
7,009
Location
California
Vehicle(s)
Jeep Wrangler JKUR
Your Bronco Model
Wildtrak
Clubs
 
They probably bribed h with a high paying, executive position with their MOD production division.
 

Sponsored

North7

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 21, 2020
Threads
111
Messages
7,264
Reaction score
25,475
Location
North Texas
Vehicle(s)
SUV
Your Bronco Model
Undecided
Clubs
 
They probably bribed h with a high paying, executive position with their MOD production division.
LOL, I was at a problem supplier once in the UK, they took me to dinner and tried to hire me, I said I was not interested in moving my family there. 🤷‍♂️ :p:ROFLMAO:
 
  • Like
Reactions: Rpm

da_jokker

Wildtrak
Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 14, 2020
Threads
124
Messages
6,143
Reaction score
7,009
Location
California
Vehicle(s)
Jeep Wrangler JKUR
Your Bronco Model
Wildtrak
Clubs
 
LOL, I was at a problem supplier once in the UK, they took me to dinner and tried to hire me, I said I was not interested in moving my family there. 🤷‍♂️ :p:ROFLMAO:
Good choice!
 

BroncoPA65

Badlands
Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 24, 2021
Threads
0
Messages
289
Reaction score
646
Location
Lehigh Valley, PA
Vehicle(s)
Various Fords & VW's
Your Bronco Model
Badlands
Clubs
 
... I was looking for confirmation that the honeycomb in the Bronco hardtop is paper rather than composite.

The reason I am asking is because paper absorbs water, but composites don’t. Since there are non-rolled edges with the honeycomb internal layer exposed, the material choice here would be important.
Right, need to be careful about the material of the honeycomb and its properties. There are a variety of materials used for that. A lot of those sheets are made by making a stack of the sheets which include stripes of glue (kind of like lined notebook paper) . After stacking it's put on a high tonnage heated press to activate the glue. It could be a wood paper product, Tyvek-like material, etc.

After that, the stack is pulled apart like an accordian, held in that expanded position and dipped /soaked in a resin. Once cured its basically a light, strong, Rigid block that can be sliced, machined, etc.

After that the outer layers are put on with heat, adhesive, etc. And could be formed, or shaped.

Commercial jets (Boeing, Airbus, etc.) use this method to fabricate the fuselage, wings, etc. and last decades flying millions of miles.

Now I have no idea exactly how this top is made, just saying that it's difficult to make predictions without understanding the exact methods and materials used (like Razorbak86 is suggesting).
 

Razorbak86

Badlands
Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 19, 2020
Threads
41
Messages
3,201
Reaction score
12,114
Location
Northwest Arkansas
Vehicle(s)
Ford Bronco, BMW R1150 GS
Your Bronco Model
Badlands
Clubs
 
Right, need to be careful about the material of the honeycomb and its properties. There are a variety of materials used for that. A lot of those sheets are made by making a stack of the sheets which include stripes of glue (kind of like lined notebook paper) . After stacking it's put on a high tonnage heated press to activate the glue. It could be a wood paper product, Tyvek-like material, etc.

After that, the stack is pulled apart like an accordian, held in that expanded position and dipped /soaked in a resin. Once cured its basically a light, strong, Rigid block that can be sliced, machined, etc.

After that the outer layers are put on with heat, adhesive, etc. And could be formed, or shaped.

Commercial jets (Boeing, Airbus, etc.) use this method to fabricate the fuselage, wings, etc. and last decades flying millions of miles.

Now I have no idea exactly how this top is made, just saying that it's difficult to make predictions without understanding the exact methods and materials used (like Razorbak86 is suggesting).
Thanks for the clarification.

When people hear “paper honeycomb”, they immediately think of something like corrugated cardboard, which absorbs water and swells up, so they expect it will cause delamination, especially in the winter, when the absorbed water freezes and expands.

What you just described is a composite which likely would not absorb water, because it has already been soaked in resin.
 

Sponticore

Badlands
Well-Known Member
First Name
Justin
Joined
Aug 22, 2020
Threads
2
Messages
177
Reaction score
532
Location
Toronto Ontario
Vehicle(s)
My two feet
Your Bronco Model
Badlands
There is a different screen your dealer can see then Corporate. It is built. It’s in purgatory with a bunch of us. Not sure why, it’s not hardtop related, or not only hardtop, since I have a soft top. I am 6/18 build and still sitting.
chchchchchchips baby
 

Sponsored

BroncoPA65

Badlands
Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 24, 2021
Threads
0
Messages
289
Reaction score
646
Location
Lehigh Valley, PA
Vehicle(s)
Various Fords & VW's
Your Bronco Model
Badlands
Clubs
 
Thanks for the clarification.

When people hear “paper honeycomb”, they immediately think of something like corrugated cardboard, which absorbs water and swells up, so they expect it will cause delamination, especially in the winter, when the absorbed water freezes and expands.

What you just described is a composite which likely would not absorb water, because it has already been soaked in resin.
EXACTLY!! (probably should've said it that way to reiterate)
 

Mjtermini

Badlands
Well-Known Member
First Name
Michael
Joined
May 8, 2021
Threads
5
Messages
197
Reaction score
201
Location
Florida
Vehicle(s)
2022 2DR Badlands
Your Bronco Model
Badlands
Enough about bad roofs, late scheduling, and multi-week gate holds to check the roof panels, okay? The fine men and women of MAP are ramping up at an exciting pace to get as many of your builds out the door as possible.

The current pace of production is seeing nearly 900 units daily roll off of final assembly as we sit just 2 weeks away from "full blend" line speed. That 900 figure is split between Bronco and Ranger, currently running about a 60/40 split. Bronco's body shop has been pushing out as many as 300 rigs per shift, as they are running ahead of final a bit on speed. Units are only going to paint when there is room for them on final after, so there will be some ebb and flow here.

We've all been let down by the issues surrounding the MIC tops - my own included - and I have to believe that there is a fix in the works. All I can say for certain is that issues are being documented thoroughly and I expect some customer-facing movement on this soon.

As you've seen, production mix for the coming months is shifting outside of demand for hard tops (and all 2 door units). There was optimism in the last 6 weeks when output at the Plymouth plant ticked up a bit, but the multiple issues with delivered roof units has popped that balloon quite quickly. I can't say for sure what the final mix will be, but dealers are being asked to program retail stock builds (all 4 door soft tops, mostly base and Big Bend trims) so that MAP has a pool of backup builds in case they run out of buildable units. They will NOT build appreciable stock units IF there are buildable customer units in the queue. It's just a matter of what they're able to build.

IF you're lucky enough to get a hard top Bronco delivered, document the heck out of your roof at delivery. Take pictures of the entire inside and outside in detail. Note any inconsistencies - however small - so the dealer has record of it for when a solution becomes available.

The more I hear from my folks and spend time watching how my roof is reacting to everyday use, it's becoming sadly apparent that the design might only work if manufacturing were 100% perfect.. and even then it's iffy. Specifically, the raw edges where all 3 layers are cross-sectioned is just begging for material loss from the core (mine has happened in a pretty dramatic fashion in the last 3 weeks), leaving little cavities where water can accumulate and cause havoc when the weather shifts.

Annoying roof issues aside - that I'm confident Ford will address - these rigs are sweet. They're fun an engaging to drive, they're comfortable to live with, they do what you ask them to without any protest, and they catch the eye of everyone around you.

Added:

Answering a big question that a lot of you are asking- Scheduled builds have not been impacted by top issues (for better or worse). If you have a build week, or even better a specific date, your rig will be built as ordered. Check your MIC top closely when you take delivery and make sure your desler logs any imperfections. I have faith that a fix will be on the way.


Q&A:



With all that I've been told (much of which I've shared with you, but certainly not all), the part is very difficult to manufacture under ideal conditions, and some of the final design designs - notably the raw exposed cut edges - are questionable.

That Webasto is an absolute dumpster fire (and that's insulting to campus parties down the street at THE Ohio State University) just took a small issue and turned it nuclear.
Is it still the plan for Ford to send out September build schedules by July 29?
 

flip

Badlands
Well-Known Member
Base Sponsor (Level 1)
First Name
Phil
Joined
Jul 21, 2020
Threads
41
Messages
4,223
Reaction score
14,053
Location
IN
Website
www.ruxerparts.com
Vehicle(s)
Fords
Your Bronco Model
Badlands
Clubs
 
Opining time. We work on a fair amount of heavy trucks which means fiberglass hood, fenders and the like. In my me time I am a wood butcher and have played around with veneer.

Qualification time: I have not seen any of these tops in person so my next thoughts are going to be based on assumptions.

First, I assume there is some sort of mold or vacuum system used for these laminations. Either way, they would come out of it with edges that have squeezeout from the resin/epoxy and require trimming. Possibly one reason for the raw unfinished appearance.

Second, it’s been my experience that when doing layups, especially when vacuum pressing/bagging, the edges seem to be where delamination or poor bond happens the majority of the time. I always oversize my work piece so I can trim back to “good wood”. Of course the resin/glue/epoxy, has to allow adequate open time to allow setup and trapped air to work itself out through built in vents or around the edges. Too much pressure and you can crush a filler core or squeeze out too much epoxy. Not enough and you don’t get a good bond to each layer and have air bubbles trapped. Uneven pressure and all of the above. Not under pressure long enough and all of the above.

Looking at some of the pics it appears the separation is mainly around the edges. It probably isn’t a complete delam otherwise it would be showing up in different areas. My guess is either not enough resin squeeze out, not enough pressure around the edges or wasn’t under pressure long enough for the epoxy to kick.
 

HPNQ420

Black Diamond
Well-Known Member
First Name
David
Joined
Jul 8, 2020
Threads
8
Messages
305
Reaction score
634
Location
Wauwatosa, WI
Vehicle(s)
'23 Bronco, '19 GTI, '88 R100GS, HPN BMW G/S
Your Bronco Model
Black Diamond
Clubs
 
Looking at some of the pics it appears the separation is mainly around the edges. It probably isn’t a complete delam otherwise it would be showing up in different areas. My guess is either not enough resin squeeze out, not enough pressure around the edges or wasn’t under pressure long enough for the epoxy to kick.
Yes, and with a composite part, you want as little epoxy or other resin as possible or you are adding useless weight. However, too little and you don't get enough wet out, and that usually shows up at the edges.
Sponsored

 
 


Top