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California bans sale of gas engines by 2035 [*** ADMIN WARNING: NO POLITICS. TECHNICAL DISCUSSION ONLY ***]

goatman2

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Haven't read it but some folks are saying there are/will be/may be restrictions on registering new ICE vehicles bought out of state as well.
In CA that rule already exists. A vehicle must have a minimum of 7500 miles on it to be able to register it in CA.
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lapazleo

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Understood, and that is a real issue, but don't underestimate how quickly technology can spread in a capitalist economic system.

For example, when was the last time you rented a physical video from a video rental store? Blockbuster filed for bankruptcy just 12 years ago (2010).

2035 is 13 years from now, and the law doesn't outlaw use of existing ICE vehicles in 2035. It just prevents the sale of new ICE vehicles at that time.
Yes but this not capitalist but government mandated. The video example you used was caused by technology improvements not government mandates. Now on the technical side ev's are not zero emission no matter if all electric came from nuclear power sources there will still be emissions involved at some point in the process. Ev's still require plastics rubber and lubrication all of which come from petroleum. Hydrogen power would be a much better way to go from a technical stand point. I know we don't want this to be political so I won't say no more other than this whole ev business is political at it's very core.
 

lapazleo

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No Virginia, the earth isn't flat.

I will probably never own a EV but they are coming pretty fast.

The first electric cars went from 1894 to 1920 when the price difference to ice killed them. and that was back then electricity in rural areas was a rare thing and gas stations didn't either.

Washington and Massachusetts have already announced they will be following California with the 2035 ban.

If there is money to be made EV issues will be ironed out. More chargers of different types, faster charging, more range, different battery types etc is all coming.

The EV charger that drops from the sky

Any where there is a parking lot and a utility pole can be a charging station for about $9K.
But where does the power come from for all these charging stations? The big problem is the cart is being put before the horse. All the ev's in the world are no good without power sources.
 

lapazleo

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That prediction is based on your own personal assumption about the efficiency of battery technology 20 years from now.

For comparison, I bought some Makita cordless tools in 2003 (19 years ago). Their 18V battery pack, which was cutting edge at the time, is Nickle Metal Hydride (Ni-MH) technology, and the output is 2.6 Ah.

I just bought some Milwaukee cordless tools this year. Their 18V battery pack is Lithium-Ion (Li-ion) technology (a much better technology than Ni-MH), and the output is 5.0 Ah, in a smaller form factor.

This is a real world example of the improvement in battery technology in 20 years time.

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Yes but those batteries are useless without a power source to charge them infrastructure has to be developed first.
 

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GToddC5

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RBF 1401

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Yes but this not capitalist but government mandated. The video example you used was caused by technology improvements not government mandates. Now on the technical side ev's are not zero emission no matter if all electric came from nuclear power sources there will still be emissions involved at some point in the process. Ev's still require plastics rubber and lubrication all of which come from petroleum. Hydrogen power would be a much better way to go from a technical stand point. I know we don't want this to be political so I won't say no more other than this whole ev business is political at it's very core.
OK, then. A better example would be digital television broadcasting.

For those of us who refuse to pay for television, there were a dozen or more TV channels that broadcast an analog signal. Then the federal government mandated a switch to 100% digital broadcasting.

Every single person who wanted to watch "free" TV had to buy a new TV.

Or... digital cell phones.
Or stricter building codes.

Governments didn't force New England homeowners to tear down or retrofit their Victorian homes. But I can guarantee you that the ridiculously steep stairs in the house where I grew up and plenty of other features are very dangerous and would not be allowed to be built today in any state.

And for those of you saying it's stupid and will fail... maybe it will and my state of Arizona will triple in population.🤣🤣🤣
 

airishfan

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I would not worry about EV they be lot better by 2035 and sure you can get 1000 miles on each charge my then , I know old people talk crap on EV because the distance you get on a charge but they get better ever years.i am sure in 1900 old people was talking crap about gas power vehicle saying they won't last and you well run out of gas and gas vehicles are not the future and horses are.
 

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The video example you used was caused by technology improvements not government mandates.
But where does the power come from for all these charging stations? The big problem is the cart is being put before the horse. All the ev's in the world are no good without power sources.
Yes but those batteries are useless without a power source to charge them infrastructure has to be developed first.
You’re missing the point about economics by focusing purely on current politics and assuming naively that technology development remains static. Technology improvements over the next 13 years will affect supply and demand in 2035, because the more efficient the batteries become, the lower the demand per vehicle and the lower the projected supply needed from the power infrastructure.

Back in the 1970’s, both environmentalists and economists alike looked at the average MPG of vehicles at that time, when only vertical drilling could be used for oil production, and then predicted ‘Peak Oil’ just a couple of decades out. That proved to be a fallacy years later because of the technological improvements in vehicle fuel efficiency (higher MPG, lower gasoline demand per vehicle) and the revolutionary adoption of horizontal drilling in oil production (increase in oil supply). Back in the ‘70s, the US was a net importer of oil and heavily dependent on Middle Eastern oil production, but two decades into the twenty first century, the US became the #1 oil producer in the world, largely because of the success of horizontal drilling and the exploration efforts made by independent US oil companies employing that technology.

Bottom Line: You can’t treat technology as a constant when projecting future supply and demand, because battery efficiency and power infrastructure technology will continue to improve over the next 13 years, and those factors will continue to alter the supply and demand equation, so the amount of power infrastructure (supply) required to support BEV vehicles (demand) in 2035 will be different than what you see today.
 

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But where does the power come from for all these charging stations? The big problem is the cart is being put before the horse. All the ev's in the world are no good without power sources.
You're seem to be assuming we have all the power capacity that's possible. Each and every proposed power generating plant/system proposed is a financial decision based on cost vs demand. More capacity is coming on line on a regular basis.
Yes in some ways the cart is out there and there are examples of charging bans in China and Texas during climate extremes to argue that point but I am talking about two areas that have a history of sub standard power grids. Texas has responded to some of their short falls since over 200 people froze to death recently in large part due to wind and solar. Texas is #2 in the country for renewables funny considering it's the oil and gas capitol of the USA. Last year about 57% of electricity generated in Iowa came from renewable sources with more coming. This new generation capacity actually helps the existing grid by providing multiple input sources rather than requiring a limited number of power plants to transmit power over long distances. Transmitting power over distance is inefficient to say the least.
EV adaptation isn't happening over night for a variety of reasons so there is time to respond to demand. 2035 is still a long time to respond.
 

Jdc

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But where does the power come from for all these charging stations? The big problem is the cart is being put before the horse. All the ev's in the world are no good without power sources.
No one's going to build additional capacity unless there's sufficient demand. So you have to build the cars first.
 

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I personally have no issues with EV’s or those that own them. I do have an issue with a mandate that removes consumer choice and removes market competition! As has been mentioned many times already EV’s are fine for those that live in urban areas but have many shortcomings for those that live in rural areas, like myself, where there is not a robust energy supply and it’s normal for power to be cutoff for days during wildfire season.

For the non-CA people making uneducated comments, you’re kinda sorta right that this is politically motivated, the reality though is that all of these decisions and mandates are being made by CARB, California Air Resources Board, who are not politicians or scientists or energy experts, matter of fact none of them have any experience at all with regards to emissions. They are mostly appointed community representatives by the governors office that make the rules that others must comply with, of course they do so with a nod from the governors office. So the only way to get rid of them, is to remove the current leadership in CA.
 

BroncoAZ

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Correct that's what is currently the plan. The the tax on existing ICE will come I can promise you.
I would expect a gas tax in the 100% range to start, and getting worse when people still don’t make the change to an EV.

I have a Lightning due soon, I want the data needed to make proper decisions for the company fleet I manage. I really don’t see how the power grid math works out to put a single EV in every driveway, much less two.
 
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goatman2

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I would not worry about EV they be lot better by 2035 and sure you can get 1000 miles on each charge my then , I know old people talk crap on EV because the distance you get on a charge but they get better ever years.i am sure in 1900 old people was talking crap about gas power vehicle saying they won't last and you well run out of gas and gas vehicles are not the future and horses are.
It's not magic. EV's are getting longer range because they are getting bigger batteries. Bigger batteries mean more manufacturing and transportation of rare earth minerals and plenty of other things to make the batteries. And we don't have a real recycle program for all of that precious metals and materials yet. EV's have the draw that they have because the mostly misinformed public think EV's are solving a problem, a problem that doesn't exist. Sustainability is the real issue, not climate change and carbon emissions. While fossil fuel is not going to run out anytime soon (we have centuries worth of the stuff), it won't last forever. But, neither will the materials needed to make all of the high performance batteries that would be needed to convert everything to EV's. And, those pushing the agenda are speaking out of both sides of their mouth, pushing EV's and resisting nuclear. They are closing down millions of acres of desert to multi-use, we can't drive in 85% of the areas in CA that we could drive through in 1976, and yet it's OK to fill up huge tracks of desert with solar panels. The push to EV's is based on a misinformed idealism and is not based in reality of the situation. As many have said, the grid is not there to sustain it, and the power generation capacity is not there to support. Oh, but it sure makes a lot of people feel good.
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