Confused about the high towing rating on new Rapter vs Bronco

[Killed By Death]

Wheel base, track width, brake system.

Beginning to think no one in here had basic physics in high school. In addition to items mentioned above there are MANY other factors to consider like center of gravity for example. The list is endless. Plus tow rating has much more to do with stopping safely than pulling! Hell, technically a Bronco could pull a Boeing 747 but how are you going to stop? Not to mention the lawyer / lawsuit factor. It's really not that hard! Ford would love to increase the towing capacity but they are not going to cross the safety threshold.

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[Cookieck]

Yes, but that's where the other parts of J2807 come in. Tow-vehicle understeer, trailer sway response, and combination stability.

What Ford, and essentially Jeep, is saying is this is the maximum certifiable towable amount for a vehicle with this wheelbase AND meeting their internal off-road requirements.

Sure you can beef everything up in the rear but it's going to come at a cost to off-road capability, and on-road compliance.

What it says is that Ford tested it up to the amount they rated it for, doesn’t mean it wouldn’t pass the same tests with more if they didn’t choose to test it for more. The fact that the 2dr and 4 dr share a max tow rating means it’s not the max for the wheelbase as you say(for the 4dr at least). And the hitch they use is only good for 3500lbs, so it could literally just be they didn’t put a higher class hitch so didn’t even bother testing it for more than that. Which is exactly the issue, if that’s what they did then nobody knows exactly what’s it’s actually capable of as is with just a higher class hitch. A tow rating doesn’t always mean that’s the max it can do, even under the SAE tests, could easily just mean that’s the most they actually tested it for.

 

[Lakelife36]

What it says is that Ford tested it up to the amount they rated it for, doesn’t mean it wouldn’t pass the same tests with more if they didn’t choose to test it for more. The fact that the 2dr and 4 dr share a max tow rating means it’s not the max for the wheelbase as you say. And the hitch they use is only good for 3500lbs, so it could literally just be they didn’t put a higher class hitch so didn’t even bother testing it for more than that. Which is exactly the issue, if that’s what they did then nobody knows exactly what’s it’s actually capable of as is with just a higher class hitch. A tow rating doesn’t always mean that’s the max it can do, even under the SAE tests, could easily just mean that’s the most they actually tested it for.

It actually IS tested for more, which is what is especially frustrating, although in my particular case I'm limited more by GCWR than the stated tow cap since I'll have my little family with me. This evening I'll find my table I made showing the published GCWR and resulting TWR and post it on this thread.

 

[L8apex]

What it says is that Ford tested it up to the amount they rated it for, doesn’t mean it wouldn’t pass the same tests with more if they didn’t choose to test it for more. The fact that the 2dr and 4 dr share a max tow rating means it’s not the max for the wheelbase as you say(for the 4dr at least). And the hitch they use is only good for 3500lbs, so it could literally just be they didn’t put a higher class hitch so didn’t even bother testing it for more than that. Which is exactly the issue, if that’s what they did then nobody knows exactly what’s it’s actually capable of as is with just a higher class hitch. A tow rating doesn’t always mean that’s the max it can do, even under the SAE tests, could easily just mean that’s the most they actually tested it for.

Not all things scale linearly - so it could very well be the max for the 2dr and 4dr.

However - I highly doubt Ford had an opportunity to beat Jeep in another category and is sandbagging. For arguments sake, lets say it could certify to 4000lb. Why not say you can tow 3600 - to be best in the category? You leave yourself room for when Jeep recertifies to a higher level, but you get at least 1MY of being the best.

To match them on this makes no sense IF from the factory they were able to certify at a higher weight.

 

[Lakelife36]

Not all things scale linearly - so it could very well be the max for the 2dr and 4dr.

However - I highly doubt Ford had an opportunity to beat Jeep in another category and is sandbagging. For arguments sake, lets say it could certify to 4000lb. Why not say you can tow 3600 - to be best in the category? You leave yourself room for when Jeep recertifies to a higher level, but you get at least 1MY of being the best.

To match them on this makes no sense IF from the factory they were able to certify at a higher weight.

Well...

Remember as per both the 2021 Ford Towing Guide and the GVWR details sheet from BN (both attached), Ford has published four GCWRs for all variants of the Bronco. The two documents differ slightly on how those four GCWRs are presented, but they appear to be primarily based on engine and transmission, and secondarily based on gear ratio and transfer case. The gear ratio and transfer case may converge for certain options (like Sasquatch) but I have yet to dive deeply enough into them to figure that out. Very notably absent is any difference whatsoever in GCWR between 2-Door and 4-Door models. These four GCWRs range from 8480lbs to 8840lbs with the two most common entries being 8780lbs (2.3L) and 8840lbs (2.7L), again irrespective of wheelbase.

As per both the Towing Guide and the article on BN that the GVWR details sheet was attached to, Ford uses 300lbs of driver and passenger as the payload in a vehicle for the purposes of the SAE J2807 calculations. What this means is that after they've tested a vehicle with SAE J2807 to determine its GCWR, the resulting Trailer Weight Rating = GCWR-curb weight-300lbs. With this knowledge in-hand I put together the table below to show what the TWR for each build would be, given the GCWR and curb weights published on the BN GVWR details sheet. I have used the max GCWR and bae curb weights for simplicity so there may be some cases where this TWR is overestimated slightly, but note that all of the manuals and many of the 2.7s only come with one GCWR (the 8780lbs and 8840lbs used).

				2-Door	2-Door	4-Door	4-Door
Trim	Engine	Trans	GCWR	Base Curb Weight	TWR=GCWR-BCW-300lbs	Base Curb Weight	TWR=GCWR-BCW-300lbs
Base	2.3	7M	8780	4286	4194	N/A	N/A
BB	2.3	7M	8780	4297	4183	4467	4013
BD	2.3	7M	8780	4587	3893	4825	3655
BL	2.3	7M	8780	4705	3775	4945	3535
Base	2.3	10A	8780	4306	4174	4476	4004
BB	2.3	10A	8780	4317	4163	4487	3993
BD	2.3	10A	8780	4607	3873	4845	3635
OBX	2.3	10A	8780	4406	4074	4580	3900
BL	2.3	10A	8780	4725	3755	4965	3515
Base	2.7	10A	8840	4458	4082	4628	3912
BB	2.7	10A	8840	4469	4071	4639	3901
BD	2.7	10A	8840	4781	3759	4997	3543
OBX	2.7	10A	8840	4558	3982	4731	3809
BL	2.7	10A	8840	4877	3663	5117	3423
WT	2.7	10A	8840	4749	3791	4935	3605
FE	2.7	10A	8840	4997	3543	5256	3284

As you can see there are only two builds with TWRs less than 3500lbs - the 4-Door FE and the 4-Door 2.7L BL - and nine of them come in over 4000lbs. Also remember above I mentioned that the GCWRs are the same between 2-Doors and 4-Doors? In this table you can see that because of the lower curb weight on the 2-Doors, their TWR is actually higher than the equivalent 4-Door. I would love to pick the brain of someone directly involved in the SAE J807 testing for this vehicle to find out which builds they actually tested to come up with those four numbers. I am hopeful that they only tested 2-Doors and some targeted testing at 4-Doors will produce a higher GCWR for some of them. Personally if it came up even ~700lbs (and had the actual tow cap to match) it would likely tow and haul anything my family ever threw at and in it, at the same time.

So there you have it, by Ford's own published numbers from their own SAE J2807 testing most of these trucks can tow over 3500lbs. For that reason I believe that the current tow capacity for most builds is governed by the Class II receiver offered in the tow package, and that a more useful tow cap could be easily certified by Ford if they sprung for a Class III receiver and perhaps some targeted testing at certain 4-Doors.

 

[Virtual-Chris]

Where does the GCWR figure come from? Why is it 8840? Why not 9600? Or 7800? What hat is this number coming out of?

 

[UncleBuck]

Well...

Remember as per both the 2021 Ford Towing Guide and the GVWR details sheet from BN (both attached), Ford has published four GCWRs for all variants of the Bronco. The two documents differ slightly on how those four GCWRs are presented, but they appear to be primarily based on engine and transmission, and secondarily based on gear ratio and transfer case. The gear ratio and transfer case may converge for certain options (like Sasquatch) but I have yet to dive deeply enough into them to figure that out. Very notably absent is any difference whatsoever in GCWR between 2-Door and 4-Door models. These four GCWRs range from 8480lbs to 8840lbs with the two most common entries being 8780lbs (2.3L) and 8840lbs (2.7L), again irrespective of wheelbase.

As per both the Towing Guide and the article on BN that the GVWR details sheet was attached to, Ford uses 300lbs of driver and passenger as the payload in a vehicle for the purposes of the SAE J2807 calculations. What this means is that after they've tested a vehicle with SAE J2807 to determine its GCWR, the resulting Trailer Weight Rating = GCWR-curb weight-300lbs. With this knowledge in-hand I put together the table below to show what the TWR for each build would be, given the GCWR and curb weights published on the BN GVWR details sheet. I have used the max GCWR and bae curb weights for simplicity so there may be some cases where this TWR is overestimated slightly, but note that all of the manuals and many of the 2.7s only come with one GCWR (the 8780lbs and 8840lbs used).

				2-Door	2-Door	4-Door	4-Door
Trim	Engine	Trans	GCWR	Base Curb Weight	TWR=GCWR-BCW-300lbs	Base Curb Weight	TWR=GCWR-BCW-300lbs
Base	2.3	7M	8780	4286	4194	N/A	N/A
BB	2.3	7M	8780	4297	4183	4467	4013
BD	2.3	7M	8780	4587	3893	4825	3655
BL	2.3	7M	8780	4705	3775	4945	3535
Base	2.3	10A	8780	4306	4174	4476	4004
BB	2.3	10A	8780	4317	4163	4487	3993
BD	2.3	10A	8780	4607	3873	4845	3635
OBX	2.3	10A	8780	4406	4074	4580	3900
BL	2.3	10A	8780	4725	3755	4965	3515
Base	2.7	10A	8840	4458	4082	4628	3912
BB	2.7	10A	8840	4469	4071	4639	3901
BD	2.7	10A	8840	4781	3759	4997	3543
OBX	2.7	10A	8840	4558	3982	4731	3809
BL	2.7	10A	8840	4877	3663	5117	3423
WT	2.7	10A	8840	4749	3791	4935	3605
FE	2.7	10A	8840	4997	3543	5256	3284

As you can see there are only two builds with TWRs less than 3500lbs - the 4-Door FE and the 4-Door 2.7L BL - and nine of them come in over 4000lbs. Also remember above I mentioned that the GCWRs are the same between 2-Doors and 4-Doors? In this table you can see that because of the lower curb weight on the 2-Doors, their TWR is actually higher than the equivalent 4-Door. I would love to pick the brain of someone directly involved in the SAE J807 testing for this vehicle to find out which builds they actually tested to come up with those four numbers. I am hopeful that they only tested 2-Doors and some targeted testing at 4-Doors will produce a higher GCWR for some of them. Personally if it came up even ~700lbs (and had the actual tow cap to match) it would likely tow and haul anything my family ever threw at and in it, at the same time.

So there you have it, by Ford's own published numbers from their own SAE J2807 testing most of these trucks can tow over 3500lbs. For that reason I believe that the current tow capacity for most builds is governed by the Class II receiver offered in the tow package, and that a more useful tow cap could be easily certified by Ford if they sprung for a Class III receiver and perhaps some targeted testing at certain 4-Doors.

This is some interesting shit. I need to re-read when I’m not tired AF. Thanks for the work!

 

[The Pope]

As we know.... FoMoCo does follow us here on Bronco6g, so with the skilled & knowledgeable people here pointing out their (FoMoCo) shortfall of the currently stated tow capacities by the usage of the SAE Testing Standards (among several other things) and that Both the 2D & 4D have the Same Tow Rate ..... well... they (FoMoCo) should be ashamed of themselves for thinking that we wouldn't notice or even question this.

Shame on Whomever it was at FoMoCo that made this decision....
and .....
Shame on Whomever it was that set the price for the currently offered Tow Package at $600! It's at best a $100 or Less package. (and I understand price setting.... what is the market willing to pay for something.... )

(oh no! I feel that I've opened the flood gate.... sorry/not sorry for the next part)

These sort of screwups makes me wonder where else did they screwup.... SMH at these decisions....

So..... FoMoCo.... Do The Right Thing..... Do the testing and give use the "true tow rating" that this ICON Deserves and stop trying to exploit/limit options ..... we.... the American Public have had a rough time over the past several months and you'd gain so much customer loyalty if you don't price gouge us as we're trying to dig out of the current national situation.

(again.... sorry/not sorry)

 

[L8apex]

				2-Door	2-Door	4-Door	4-Door
Trim	Engine	Trans	GCWR	Base Curb Weight	TWR=GCWR-BCW-300lbs	Base Curb Weight	TWR=GCWR-BCW-300lbs
Base	2.3	7M	8780	4286	4194	N/A	N/A
BB	2.3	7M	8780	4297	4183	4467	4013
BD	2.3	7M	8780	4587	3893	4825	3655
BL	2.3	7M	8780	4705	3775	4945	3535
Base	2.3	10A	8780	4306	4174	4476	4004
BB	2.3	10A	8780	4317	4163	4487	3993
BD	2.3	10A	8780	4607	3873	4845	3635
OBX	2.3	10A	8780	4406	4074	4580	3900
BL	2.3	10A	8780	4725	3755	4965	3515
Base	2.7	10A	8840	4458	4082	4628	3912
BB	2.7	10A	8840	4469	4071	4639	3901
BD	2.7	10A	8840	4781	3759	4997	3543
OBX	2.7	10A	8840	4558	3982	4731	3809
BL	2.7	10A	8840	4877	3663	5117	3423
WT	2.7	10A	8840	4749	3791	4935	3605
FE	2.7	10A	8840	4997	3543	5256	3284

Great Work! Couple things the first asterisk is important, *Trailer tow is based on SAE standard and may be higher.

The reason that's important is per the standard you have to use standard trailers. Unfortunately the trailers jump from 3500lbs -> 5000lbs, which as you've shown none of the packages are capable of pulling.

EDIT: The discrepancies between your calculations and Bronco Nation come down to this; TWR = GCWR - TVTW.

Which TVTW for vehicles <8500lbs GVWR is the weight used for emissions / fuel economy + ALL options w/ > greater than 33% take weight + 300lbs driver/passenger + weight of tow package (if not included in 33% of options)

 

[Lakelife36]

Great Work! Couple things the first asterisk is important, *Trailer tow is based on SAE standard and may be higher.

The reason that's important is per the standard you have to use standard trailers. Unfortunately the trailers jump from 3500lbs -> 5000lbs, which as you've shown none of the packages are capable of pulling.

Thanks! Someone else mentioned that too but I was never able to confirm it. Do you have a copy of the standard available? There are plenty of vehicles out there with tow caps a little higher or lower than one of those discrete steps which made me wonder how that is applied.

 

[Lakelife36]

Where does the GCWR figure come from? Why is it 8840? Why not 9600? Or 7800? What hat is this number coming out of?

The GCWR is the actual result of the SAE J2807 testing. My question is which vehicles were tested? It's suspicious to me that 2- and 4-Doors, with their 16" difference in wheelbase, ended up with the same number.

 

[Merc4x4]

Beginning to think no one in here had basic physics in high school. In addition to items mentioned above there are MANY other factors to consider like center of gravity for example. The list is endless. Plus tow rating has much more to do with stopping safely than pulling! Hell, technically a Bronco could pull a Boeing 747 but how are you going to stop? Not to mention the lawyer / lawsuit factor. It's really not that hard! Ford would love to increase the towing capacity but they are not going to cross the safety threshold.

If a VW can pull a 747, then so can my Bronco!

Edit for a little more info:
"The Touareg was "lightly modified" with the addition of 7,030 kg (15,498 lbs.) of ballast weight (!) and the fitment of the 4.56 axle from Touareg V8 model. The latter mod turned out to be unnecessary since the driver, Uew Krieghoff, performed the stunt in the low ratio, second gear."

https://www.autoblog.com/2006/11/22/touareg-v10-tdi-tows-a-747/

 

[Virtual-Chris]

The GCWR is the actual result of the SAE J2807 testing. My question is which vehicles were tested? It's suspicious to me that 2- and 4-Doors, with their 16" difference in wheelbase, ended up with the same number.

Right, but do they just test a weight like say a vehicle pulling a 3500lb trailer, see that it passes, and call that the GCWR? Or do they repeatedly test by adding 100Lbs to the trailer until it fails and call the last successful test the GCWR?

My sense is, they tested with a 3500lb trailer, it passed, and that established the GCWR. It thus says nothing about the actual limit of the Bronco.

 

[L8apex]

Right, but do they just test a weight like say a vehicle pulling a 3500lb trailer, see that it passes, and call that the GCWR? Or do they repeatedly test by adding 100Lbs to the trailer until it fails and call the last successful test the GCWR?

My sense is, they tested with a 3500lb trailer, it passed, and that established the GCWR. It thus says nothing about the actual limit of the Bronco.

They test using standard trailers with each one required specific tongue lengths, tires, number of axels, and most importantly minimum frontal square footage. Unfortunately they're pretty discrete. 3500lb (30ft2) -> 3850lb (31ft2) -> 5000lb (40ft2).

Why the weird separation? My guess is a couple OEMs had 31ft2 trailers and when the standard was created it allowed them to certify at the lower the ballast 3500lbs OR make use of the extra 1 sq. ft and certify to 3850lbs without having to buy all new trailers.

 

[Rivers90]

If Ford makes a Bronco pickup I'm sure it will have a much higher tow rating just like the Jeep gladiator does.

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