Dealer insists it’s 6 quarts for oil change on my 2.7L

[broncorik]

Just because the turbos are bigger doesn’t mean they hold any more oil. The center sections of the turbos are probably identical or very close in size at least, certainly not enough size difference to say they hold more oil. The only thing larger would be the turbine and compressor housings most likely. Also considering they sit in the same spot on the engine.. the plumbing to these turbos is probably close to identical also.
[/QUOTE

Opinions are great and all but the original topic of this thread is related to trying to find an accurate answer as to how much oil our 2.7s are supposed to hold (for an oil CHANGE...not factory fill). Now that Ford finally came up with the latest (and hopefully) accurate answer, suddenly the thread went down the rabbit hole of Raptor engine oil capacity. If someone who actually HAS a Raptor believes 7 quarts is not appropriate for his or her oil change, start a thread on that. Tell Ford they screwed up and that it is your belief (with zero actual evidence) that by golly the plumbing and turbos and everything else oil-related on the 3.0 and 2.7 are so closely matched that both engines need the exact same amount of oil. Or, just buy a Raptor stick and pretend you have a 3.0 and when you run 7 quarts your new stick will "support" your belief/assertion. Easy solution!

If anyone in this forum is a Ford parts person (who can compare PNs) or a tech (who actually wrenches on BOTH) 2.7s and 3.0s and is willing to share factual information regarding similarities and differences between the oiling systems of both engines, we are all just guessing as to why the 2.7 and 3.0 capacities are (currently) different.

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[broncorik]

Can they ignore that the 2.7 ran thousands and thousands of miles with 7qt… don’t think so… a change in the manual does not ignore this FACT…

Sure they can...because it is a moot point. What do you want them to do? Keep the manual at 7 quarts just because there was no apparent mass destruction of engines at 7 quarts (for most people...so far...)? That is not supposed to be how engineers write manuals...

 

[cowman]

Sure they can...because it is a moot point. What do you want them to do? Keep the manual at 7 quarts just because there was no apparent mass destruction of engines at 7 quarts (for most people...so far...)? That is not supposed to be how engineers write manuals...

Yep… keep it at at 7 like it is supposed to be and recall the dip stick... also how many engines have had a problem because they were running with 7 qt....... I will bet none... other wise they would have not waited over a year to change it

 

[Ducati1098]

Opinions are great and all but the original topic of this thread is related to trying to find an accurate answer as to how much oil our 2.7s are supposed to hold (for an oil CHANGE...not factory fill). Now that Ford finally came up with the latest (and hopefully) accurate answer, suddenly the thread went down the rabbit hole of Raptor engine oil capacity. If someone who actually HAS a Raptor believes 7 quarts is not appropriate for his or her oil change, start a thread on that. Tell Ford they screwed up and that it is your belief (with zero actual evidence) that by golly the plumbing and turbos and everything else oil-related on the 3.0 and 2.7 are so closely matched that both engines need the exact same amount of oil. Or, just buy a Raptor stick and pretend you have a 3.0 and when you run 7 quarts your new stick will "support" your belief/assertion. Easy solution!

If anyone in this forum is a Ford parts person (who can compare PNs) or a tech (who actually wrenches on BOTH) 2.7s and 3.0s and is willing to share factual information regarding similarities and differences between the oiling systems of both engines, we are all just guessing as to why the 2.7 and 3.0 capacities are (currently) different.

The point of my comment wasn't to argue about the oil fill level, dip sticks or what the Broncos should be filled to. That’s just stupid and frankly irrelevant considering none of us are Ford engineers.

I’m just simply addressing your incorrect opinion that the Raptor turbos would “hold more oil” just because they’re bigger.

 

[broncorik]

The point of my comment wasn't to argue about the oil fill level, dip sticks or what the Broncos should be filled to. That’s just stupid and frankly irrelevant considering none of us are Ford engineers.

I’m just simply addressing your incorrect opinion that the Raptor turbos would “hold more oil” just because they’re bigger.

If you have ever disassembled/reassembled a turbo and prefilled it with the correct amount of oil prior to running the engine/preventing a dry turbo for the initial run, and priming the lines afterwards, you'd get that different turbos and associated plumbing do in fact have different specs for oil capacity (as in there is no universal amount of oil that is correct for both teeny turbos like Broncos use and huge turbos on track cars and everything in-between). I (nor you, I assume) work for Ford so note that your opinion is no more correct/valid than mine. If you happen to have a Raptor turbo AND all the associated other parts related to external oil feed system for the Raptor laying around AND those from the 2.7 and you are able to conclusively prove that they in fact hold the exact same amount of oil then please do share. Otherwise, BOTH of us just are sharing theories. As I mentioned, although I suspect the Raptor differs in some way that Ford believes justifies 7 quarts, I also would not be surprised if Ford later realized that is not correct and changes that to 6 behind the scenes just like they did/are doing with the 2.7. My theory/opinion (which yes could very well be inaccurate) is that maybe somewhere along the line Ford thought a 7 quart pan/capacity would be super but then ended up going with a 6 quart pan as usual because they realized that 7 meant a deeper pan or a flared pan that extended part the external dimensions of the block...and that doing so would have reduced clearance between it and components around it. If the Raptor in fact has the same pan, and nothing differs in the external oiling components, per your theory, then the Raptor capacity may be wrong as well. Remember that it took Ford about a year to address the inaccuracy in the 2.7. Even though the block is the same for the 2.7 and the 3.0, to heads are different...and that too could be a factor. The Raptor may also simply use an external oil cooler...that too could explain the difference...so too could a larger oil filter...I wish I had access to a parts database to get some real answers.

 

[cowman]

If you have ever disassembled/reassembled a turbo and prefilled it with the correct amount of oil prior to running the engine/preventing a dry turbo for the initial run, and priming the lines afterwards, you'd get that different turbos and associated plumbing do in fact have different specs for oil capacity (as in there is no universal amount of oil that is correct for both teeny turbos like Broncos use and huge turbos on track cars and everything in-between). I (nor you, I assume) work for Ford so note that your opinion is no more correct/valid than mine. If you happen to have a Raptor turbo AND all the associated other parts related to external oil feed system for the Raptor laying around AND those from the 2.7 and you are able to conclusively prove that they in fact hold the exact same amount of oil then please do share. Otherwise, BOTH of us just are sharing theories. As I mentioned, although I suspect the Raptor differs in some way that Ford believes justifies 7 quarts, I also would not be surprised if Ford later realized that is not correct and changes that to 6 behind the scenes just like they did/are doing with the 2.7. My theory/opinion (which yes could very well be inaccurate) is that maybe somewhere along the line Ford thought a 7 quart pan/capacity would be super but then ended up going with a 6 quart pan as usual because they realized that doing so meant a deeper pan or a flared pan that extended part the external dimensions of the block...and that doing so would have reduced clearance between it and components around it. If the Raptor in fact has the same pan, and nothing differs in the external oiling components, per your theory, then the Raptor capacity may be wrong as well. Remember that it took Ford about a year to address the inaccuracy in the 2.7. Even though the block is the same for the 2.7 and the 3.0, to heads are different...and that too could be a factor.

Ford never did address the inaccuracy of 7qt in the 2.7.... just udated the fill is 6qt now....(just to make the stick correct in my opinion....) they even state 7qt is not NECESSARY would not harm the engine.... now where did they state... that "do not run 7qt. all previous fills are incorrect"....

Read this again..... SSM 50981 2021-2022 Bronco – 2.7L GTDI Engine – Service Oil Capacity UpdateThe 2021-2022 Bronco 2.7L GTDI engine oil capacity specification with oil filter change has been updated to 6 quarts. The workshop manual has been updated with this information and electronic versions of the owner’s manual are in process of receiving the update. Following the previously recommended capacity is not necessary, but will not cause any harm to the engine. The initial fill capacity for a new/dry engine remains 7.5 quarts.

 

[Ducati1098]

If you have ever disassembled/reassembled a turbo and prefilled it with the correct amount of oil prior to running the engine/preventing a dry turbo for the initial run, and priming the lines afterwards, you'd get that different turbos and associated plumbing do in fact have different specs for oil capacity (as in there is no universal amount of oil that is correct for both teeny turbos like Broncos use and huge turbos on track cars and everything in-between). I (nor you, I assume) work for Ford so note that your opinion is no more correct/valid than mine. If you happen to have a Raptor turbo AND all the associated other parts related to external oil feed system for the Raptor laying around AND those from the 2.7 and you are able to conclusively prove that they in fact hold the exact same amount of oil then please do share. Otherwise, BOTH of us just are sharing theories. As I mentioned, although I suspect the Raptor differs in some way that Ford believes justifies 7 quarts, I also would not be surprised if Ford later realized that is not correct and changes that to 6 behind the scenes just like they did/are doing with the 2.7. My theory/opinion (which yes could very well be inaccurate) is that maybe somewhere along the line Ford thought a 7 quart pan/capacity would be super but then ended up going with a 6 quart pan as usual because they realized that 7 meant a deeper pan or a flared pan that extended part the external dimensions of the block...and that doing so would have reduced clearance between it and components around it. If the Raptor in fact has the same pan, and nothing differs in the external oiling components, per your theory, then the Raptor capacity may be wrong as well. Remember that it took Ford about a year to address the inaccuracy in the 2.7. Even though the block is the same for the 2.7 and the 3.0, to heads are different...and that too could be a factor. The Raptor may also simply use an external oil cooler...that too could explain the difference...so too could a larger oil filter...I wish I had access to a parts database to get some real answers.

I never said there was a "universal" capacity that turbochargers use, and I'm also well aware of how they work. I work on 2.7's and 3.0's very frequently. I actually do work for Ford and I've been a Ford SMT for the last 15 years, so you could say its more experience and less opinion. I also never said anything about the engine, heads, oil pan or the rest of the oiling system, so I'm not quite sure how you're getting "my theory" out of any of this. I totally agree there certainly could be differences somewhere else in the oiling system contributing to the additional 1 quart.

What is said was that the raptor turbos might be bigger, but its highly unlikely that the center section of the turbo (where the oil goes) would be any larger. The compressor wheel and turbine wheel may be larger, but its still going to the the same small frame turbocharger the 2.7 uses. Also the plumbing to the turbocharger will most likely will not change either. The turbos are still mounted in the exact same locations on the exact same type of engine.

 

[EcoBco]

I never said there was a "universal" capacity that turbochargers use, and I'm also well aware of how they work. I work on 2.7's and 3.0's very frequently. I actually do work for Ford and I've been a Ford SMT for the last 15 years, so you could say its more experience and less opinion. I also never said anything about the engine, heads, oil pan or the rest of the oiling system, so I'm not quite sure how you're getting "my theory" out of any of this. I totally agree there certainly could be differences somewhere else in the oiling system contributing to the additional 1 quart.

What is said was that the raptor turbos might be bigger, but its highly unlikely that the center section of the turbo (where the oil goes) would be any larger. The compressor wheel and turbine wheel may be larger, but its still going to the the same small frame turbocharger the 2.7 uses. Also the plumbing to the turbocharger will most likely will not change either. The turbos are still mounted in the exact same locations on the exact same type of engine.

Very nicely said Ducati, I also think its worth noting that the explorer ST which also houses a 3.0TT takes 6qts. Also I agree with you on the turbos, they may be a few mm bigger but it won't be a massive difference and even so wouldn't require an extra quart. They wouldn't completely redesign the whole engine for a limited production model, meaning location, lines, etc will be similar if not the same. I suspect minor differences and some calibration changes

 

[broncorik]

I never said there was a "universal" capacity that turbochargers use, and I'm also well aware of how they work. I work on 2.7's and 3.0's very frequently. I actually do work for Ford and I've been a Ford SMT for the last 15 years, so you could say its more experience and less opinion. I also never said anything about the engine, heads, oil pan or the rest of the oiling system, so I'm not quite sure how you're getting "my theory" out of any of this. I totally agree there certainly could be differences somewhere else in the oiling system contributing to the additional 1 quart.

What is said was that the raptor turbos might be bigger, but its highly unlikely that the center section of the turbo (where the oil goes) would be any larger. The compressor wheel and turbine wheel may be larger, but its still going to the the same small frame turbocharger the 2.7 uses. Also the plumbing to the turbocharger will most likely will not change either. The turbos are still mounted in the exact same locations on the exact same type of engine.

With that context your input is indeed valid and appreciated. I wrench primarily on GM/Mercedes and do not have access to a 3.0 Raptor setup. I don't think a difference in turbo size would make a monumental difference in oil capacity, but I do think the way the turbos are plumbed and if there is an oil cooler etc. could account for a difference in capacity. SOMEthing is different with the Raptor 3.0 (or else Ford screwed up the oil capacity on that too). My original point is that just because the 3.9 and 2.7 share a block and maybe a pan that we can assume their oil capacity is or should be the same. Back in the day on a small block or big block Chevy we just used a different filter and could increase oil capacity by nearly a quart without changing the level on the stick...I miss those days...and it is frustrating that Ford takes over a year to even tell us an accurate baseline for our 2.7s. Working for Ford that kind of lack of follow through must get frustrating?

 

[Akinmx]

I've changed the oil twice on my '22 Badlands 2.7 Sasquatch. I drained it completely for 30 minutes both times (did not measure how much came out). I put exactly 7 quarts back in both times. It shows overfill on the dipstick but it was like that from the factory. I have the extended warranty so I'm not worried... there's PLENTY of info out there from Ford where they told us to put 7 quarts in... so if something goes wrong with the 2.7 and they try to blame me I'll sue the crap out of Ford.

 

[broncorik]

I've changed the oil twice on my '22 Badlands 2.7 Sasquatch. I drained it completely for 30 minutes both times (did not measure how much came out). I put exactly 7 quarts back in both times. It shows overfill on the dipstick but it was like that from the factory. I have the extended warranty so I'm not worried... there's PLENTY of info out there from Ford where they told us to put 7 quarts in... so if something goes wrong with the 2.7 and they try to blame me I'll sue the crap out of Ford.

Ford will most likely just say "customer should have checked the manual" (which they quietly/covertly updated) which now says 6 quarts...I sometimes miss the old days with written manuals (so we'd have a paper trail...but screenshots and forum entries provide similar information). Your Bronco seems like an outlier, however...unless it has the early H stick? Can you take a pic of the symbol on the handle? My guess is that you have a stick intended for 6 quarts even on your 22 (it must have been an earlier built engine).

 

[Garrett301]

Ford will most likely just say "customer should have checked the manual" (which they quietly/covertly updated) which now says 6 quarts...I sometimes miss the old days with written manuals (so we'd have a paper trail...but screenshots and forum entries provide similar information). Your Bronco seems like an outlier, however...unless it has the early H stick? Can you take a pic of the symbol on the handle? My guess is that you have a stick intended for 6 quarts even on your 22 (it must have been an earlier built engine).

Jumping in here with a comment...I get that people are concerned and righfully so, Ford should be clear as to why they are addressing the issue in the manner they are. However, I don't see how Ford can escape liability if there are engine issues down the road...I purchased a paper manual that states 7qts, my onboard e-manual still says 7qts, my dealer has done two oil changes to date at 7qts...and Ford stated in the SSM "Following the previously recommended capacity is not necessary, but will not cause any harm to the engine. "

I have a MY21 2.7L with 23k miles on it.

 

[JKommuter]

I just had my oil changed today at the dealer. I didn't say anything about this issue just wondering what they would do. They put 7 qts in my '21 2.7liter.

 

[broncorik]

Jumping in here with a comment...I get that people are concerned and righfully so, Ford should be clear as to why they are addressing the issue in the manner they are. However, I don't see how Ford can escape liability if there are engine issues down the road...I purchased a paper manual that states 7qts, my onboard e-manual still says 7qts, my dealer has done two oil changes to date at 7qts...and Ford stated in the SSM "Following the previously recommended capacity is not necessary, but will not cause any harm to the engine. "

I have a MY21 2.7L with 23k miles on it.

I would just feel better knowing my engine has the amount of oil it is supposed to have...yes, the SSM says 7 should not cause harm, but that directly contradicts the current manual that clearly indicates NOT to fill over the max mark...and if you have the H stick, the one that is now deemed as the ONLY correct stick for the 2.7 in the database, I guarantee that your oil level is way over that (or the dealer didn't put 7 quarts in it).

 

[JohnnyBronco]

I would just feel better knowing my engine has the amount of oil it is supposed to have...yes, the SSM says 7 should not cause harm, but that directly contradicts the current manual that clearly indicates NOT to fill over the max mark...and if you have the H stick, the one that is now deemed as the ONLY correct stick for the 2.7 in the database, I guarantee that your oil level is way over that (or the dealer didn't put 7 quarts in it).

Does the manual specifically say "do not overfill" or does it just say it takes 6 quarts and you still have 1.5 quarts DIRTY oil still in the system. That is if only 6 comes out. Consider this, if 6 quarts drains out each time and dealer adds 7, then after two oil changes my Bronco should be 2 quarts overfill. Eventually removingb6 and adding 7 will result in a level reaching the piston skirts

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