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E85/FlexFuel conversion possible?

Bob Blaylock

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Perhaps more as a personal quirk than for any practical reason, I have developed a strong affinity for using E85 in my Dodge Dart. At this time, it actually does make some practical sense, as although the Dart gets only about 80% of the MPG on E85 than what it gets on gasoline, E85 is currently going for well under 80% of the cost per gallon of gasoline, so costwise, it comes out ahead, albeit with the disadvantage of having to buy fuel more often.

So, I am wondering what the likelihood is that there will be a feasible conversion for the 2.7 in the Bronco to run it on E85? It seems to me that a turbocharged engine should have the potential to make much better use of E85 than a naturally-aspired engine such as in my Dart. At the very least, with this engine being specified to deliver more power on premium (91 to 93 octane) gasoline than on 87 octane, with a proper conversion and tuning, it should be able to deliver that higher amount of power on E85, which has an effective octane rating of 100 to 105.
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j_marinelli

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Perhaps more as a personal quirk than for any practical reason, I have developed a strong affinity for using E85 in my Dodge Dart. At this time, it actually does make some practical sense, as although the Dart gets only about 80% of the MPG on E85 than what it gets ion gasoline, E85 is currently going for well under 80% of the cost per gallon of gasoline, so costwise, it comes out ahead, albeit with the disadvantage of having to buy fuel more often.

So, I am wondering what the likelihood is that there will be a feasible conversion for the 2.7 in the Bronco to run it on E85? It seems to me that a turbocharged engine should have the potential to make much better use of E85 than a naturally-aspired engine such as in my Dart. At the very least, with this engine being specified to deliver more power on premium (91 to 93 octane) gasoline than on 87 octane, with a proper conversion and tuning, it should be able to deliver that higher amount of power on E85, which has an effective octane rating of 100 to 105.

Here is a thread from last year that starts to touch on it.

https://www.bronco6g.com/forum/threads/2-7l-v6-e85.2383/

I think it will be possible and while it does benefit turbo applications over n/a applications, it will probably take some time for the R&D to catch up. Funny is I have always viewed it more for performance car applications and not on a 4x4.
 

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Technically all Ford trucks I've seen since around 2000 or so were Flexfuel capable, but the mileage hit didn't make it really a "thing". The 3.0 Rangers since 2000 were overtly badged as flex fuel. There really wasn't anything unique that I'm aware of about them. Turbo motors naturally love ethanol and I've run a few tanks full through my 2004 Volvo S60R, but short of drastically lower fuel economy (I wasn't driving it sedately), I had no measure of power...
That the Bronco is marketed as having to distinct power levels between 87 octane and 93 octane (not available in all markets - I don't live in one of those markets, but we do make ethanol locally and it's widely available), I can't think of a reason why it wouldn't be capable. I'm sure someone like Cobb will test and report, as they're as close to ethanolvangelists as it gets.
 

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From the owners manual:


Note: Use of any fuel for which the vehicle was not designed can impair the emission control system, cause loss of vehicle performance, and cause damage to the engine which may not be covered by the vehicle Warranty.
Do not use:
  • Diesel fuel.
  • Fuels containing kerosene or paraffin.
  • Fuel containing more than 15% ethanol or E85 fuel.
  • Fuels containing methanol.
  • Fuels containing metallic-based additives, including manganese-based compounds.
  • Fuels containing the octane booster additive, methylcyclopentadienyl manganese tricarbonyl (MMT).
  • Leaded fuel, using leaded fuel is prohibited by law.
    The use of fuels with metallic compounds such as methylcyclopentadienyl manganese tricarbonyl, which is a manganese-based fuel additive, will impair engine performance and affect the emission control system.


I would think all that would be required would be a sensor and a tune to allow the fuel tables to adjust when the sensor detected e85. Odd the Bronco doesn't accept e85.
 

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Bob Blaylock

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I think it will be possible and while it does benefit turbo applications over n/a applications, it will probably take some time for the R&D to catch up. Funny is I have always viewed it more for performance car applications and not on a 4x4.
I'm not terribly concerned about getting any performance over stock. Since I started this thread, I've test-driven a Wildtrak with the 2.7, and it definitely produces plenty of power as it is.

As I said before, it's mostly a personal quirk, that I prefer running E85 in my Dart. But as long as a gallon of E85 costs less than 80% of what a gallon of gasoline costs, there's a practical advantage to burning E85 in my Dart, which gets about 80% of the MPG on E85 that it gets ion gasoline.

It seems to me that there's a very real possibility that while a turbocharged engine will never get as many MPG on E85 as it gets on gasoline, it may take a smaller loss of MPG than the 20% hit that my Dart takes, making E85 even more practical.

And of course, since the 2.7 is advertised as being able to produce more power on higher octane fuel than with lower octane fuel, and since E85 has a higher effective octane than even premium gasoline, a properly converted 2.7 should produce at least as much power on E85 as on premium gasoline. So, whatever loss of MPG it doers experience on E85, should be balanced against the cost difference, not between E85 and regular gasoline, but between E85 and premium gasoline.

I'm aware that the output from the 2.7 is pretty close as it is to the limits of the 10R60 transmission, and I'm not really interested in boosting it to the point that it risks breaking the transmission.
 
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Bob Blaylock

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I would think all that would be required would be a sensor and a tune to allow the fuel tables to adjust when the sensor detected e85. Odd the Bronco doesn't accept e85.
Tuning issues aside, some vehicles have fuel system components that can be damaged by ethanol. An important part of converting a vehicle to run on E85 that wasn't so equipped from the factory would be replacing any such components with components that can withstand exposure to high concentrations of ethanol. One can hope that this is less of an issue in more modern vehicles, since even regular gasoline these days now often has as much as 15% ethanol, which is known to create problems for some older vehicles.
 
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What effect does having an aftermarket tune done to one's engine have on the warranty?

If I find someone who can tune my 2.7 to take E85, will that create warranty problems?
 

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Tuning issues aside, some vehicles have fuel system components that can be damaged by ethanol. An important part of converting a vehicle to run on E85 that wasn't so equipped from the factory would be replacing any such components with components that can withstand exposure to high concentrations of ethanol. One can hope that this is less of an issue in more modern vehicles, since even regular gasoline these days now often has as much as 15% ethanol, which is known to create problems for some older vehicles.

I hear you but I worked for an T1 OEM fuel line/compontent supplier for many years. Fuel systems have been designed to withstand Ethanol for many many years whether they support e85 or Ethanol blend gasoline.
 

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I'm not terribly concerned about getting any performance over stock. Since I started this thread, I've test-driven a Wildtrak with the 2.7, and it definitely produces plenty of power as it is.

As I said before, it's mostly a personal quirk, that I prefer running E85 in my Dart. But as long as a gallon of E85 costs less than 80% of what a gallon of gasoline costs, there's a practical advantage to burning E85 in my Dart, which gets about 80% of the MPG on E85 that it gets ion gasoline.

It seems to me that there's a very real possibility that while a turbocharged engine will never get as many MPG on E85 as it gets on gasoline, it may take a smaller loss of MPG than the 20% hit that my Dart takes, making E85 even more practical.

And of course, since the 2.7 is advertised as being able to produce more power on higher octane fuel than with lower octane fuel, and since E85 has a higher effective octane than even premium gasoline, a properly converted 2.7 should produce at least as much power on E85 as on premium gasoline. So, whatever loss of MPG it doers experience on E85, should be balanced against the cost difference, not between E85 and regular gasoline, but between E85 and premium gasoline.
I wouldn't count on it being more economical than your dart. If anything it will be worse with a turbocharged engine. Boosted engines usually run on the richer side under load compared to NA. I ran e85 on my Cobra all the time mostly just for the safety net, the performance increase was a bonus. I know from doing that for years it was in no way economical but that's not why I did it. I want to say on my Cobra it consumed about 40% more fuel compared to E15; I went from 300 miles to a tank to somewhere around 150-180. On top of that here in new England, e85 isn't that cheap. I found it was usually around the price of 87.
 

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Bob Blaylock

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I hear you but I worked for an T1 OEM fuel line/compontent [sic] supplier for many years. Fuel systems have been designed to withstand Ethanol for many many years whether they support e85 or Ethanol blend gasoline.
So, then, that shouldn't be a concern at all as far as converting a Bronco to E85. Just getting the engine to know that it's being fed E85 and to adjust itself accordingly.
 

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The tuning companies can write E85 tunes no problem, just not flex fuel. Have to test and run a specific Ethanol blend and they match the tune. It's not rocket science. It's just more fuel, and tell the computer to expect different wideband readings.

The fuel system can absolutely handle it as far as premature deterioration . Any modern vehicle uses the appropriate materials given "standard pump gas already contains up to 15% Ethanol.

NOW with all that said the Bronco prob doesn't have enough fuel pump for full E85, maybe E50 or so. Like the ecoboost trucks and whatnot just don't have the overhead room for 30% more fuel flow.
 

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Given the fuel system is already capable of discerning the octane of the fuel, it's entirely reasonable to assume it can tell whether E85 or whatever is being pumped into the injection system. Whether it knows to up the boost and duty cycles (or retard, alkyd can go either direction, pig rich or lean and hot) to compensate, is another question entirely. All Fords since 1999 should at least be E85 tolerant, usually denoted by stainless braided fuel lines at the fuel pump housing, return less fuel systems and other tell-tail components. I've been told they could even run on bio-butanol or propane with little adjustment, granted, I haven't dug further into this than here-say ... One of those designed for but never implemented dead-ends where the ability never met or justified the need or market.
One of the biggest issues with ethanol, other than the reduced energy per density, is it is hydroscopic, it absorbs water, which is the corrosive element in the fuel system. When I've run ethanol through a turbo motor, it's always during a known trip that would end in a full fill of gasoline to rinse theE85 concentration, "just-in-case..."
Bio-butanol is not hydroscopic...
 
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The 2.7 in the Bronco *should* be able to handle full E85 with just a tune since it's port and direct injected. The 2018+ F-150's can.
 
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Bob Blaylock

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NOW with all that said the Bronco prob doesn't have enough fuel pump for full E85, maybe E50 or so. Like the ecoboost trucks and whatnot just don't have the overhead room for 30% more fuel flow.
So, converting to run on E85 might require a more robust fuel pump than what the Bronco already has?
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