Excellent IFS vs SFA Article -- 2021 Bronco's Advantages In Having Independent Front Suspension

[TeocaliMG]

You obviously don't have much fourwheeling experience.

False. Everything I said is objectively true. I created a whole thread on this, go check it out if you want to see the engineering behind it. Not all IFS is created equal as I'm sure you with all your amazing experience has realized not all SFA is created equal. Kinda like that Miller KOH post you added. Also I recommend you watch his interviews, he is very open about the VERY apparent downsides of his SFA at speed, and has toyed with going to IFS, but he loved the predictability on the rocks and that's where his skills shine anyway. I have nothing against that stance.

Bonus: KOH has been run for more than 2 years and I don't think you really appreciate if I flip that argument right back at you with more IFS wins... Both systems are incredibly capable with enough money, experience and that other thing, ENGINEERING! Which I can assure you the new Bronco has more of than any previous factory IFS offroader. Raptor included.

Edit: In this context "After Tires and 4x4 driveline I'd say lockers is the biggest step up in capability" What would you rank above large/aggressive tires, and lockers? In terms of off-road performance improvement on any general 4x4 vehicle? Curious what in my statement specifically lead you to believe I don't know what i'm talking about...

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[BAUS67]

@TeocaliMG, Is there any difference between the a-arms of the Squatch and Badlands ??? I don't catch you here much anymore and wanted to ask you because I think you would be the one around here who knows.

 

[TeocaliMG]

@TeocaliMG, Is there any difference between the a-arms of the Squatch and Badlands ??? I don't catch you here much anymore and wanted to ask you because I think you would be the one around here who knows.

Been busy lately, but yea I want to say yes but I am honestly not 100% sure. I was actually surprised to find out the sasquatch was available across the lineup (kinda...) I thought it was going to be its own thing kinda like the Rubicon for Jeep. That said, my plan is to get the Badlands anyway with a manual, and upgrade the tires after assuming the arms are the same, if they aren't i'll upgrade them too. There is still a chance the test drive may temp me into the 2.7TT though... in which case I may just get the squatch lol

 

[BAUS67]

Been busy lately, but yea I want to say yes but I am honestly not 100% sure. I was actually surprised to find out the sasquatch was available across the lineup (kinda...) I thought it was going to be its own thing kinda like the Rubicon for Jeep. That said, my plan is to get the Badlands anyway with a manual, and upgrade the tires after assuming the arms are the same, if they aren't i'll upgrade them too. There is still a chance the test drive may temp me into the 2.7TT though... in which case I may just get the squatch lol

Cool thanks for the info. Sounds like a good plan. I was going Badlands at the start as well, but I'm not one for all the fancy stuff, just looking for capable wheeler that's a Ford and the wife is not to keen on leather and/or the vinyl interior (It's a joint effort) so I'm now leaning Base, Squatch, 2.7, Auto. I can "engineer" some disconnects myself. Just need the official Build & Price so I can make my decision.

Thanks again dude !! Be safe !!!

 

[Bronco4]

It seems to me that the 2021 Bronco may not be plagued with death wobble like the Superduty and the Wrangler.It seems to me that coils and solid beam axles are two contributing factors to death wobble.Although I never experienced that with my 1978 Big Bronco and it had Dick Cepek 40s back in the day.Just thinking out loud here,but I bet Ford is tired of hearing from Super Duty owners about their death wobble stories.

I have owned two 4x4 F350 Crew Cabs, never experienced death wobble.

 

[Intense]

Flex balance isn't as kind with shorter wheelbases, with RTI is how high up the ramp you go over wheelbase, longer trucks go higher (further up a rock in the real world). The RTI score balances that by putting it over wheelbase but in the real world short wheelbases go less up up the ramp.

Yeah, I don’t really get the concept of this RTI formula and the resulting number (higher is better) conveying capability, at least in certain situations. The Longer wheelbase will go up the ramp further. Maybe I’m missing something. I was actually referring to suspension travel/flex.

By “flex balance” I’m guessing you’re referring to counterweight/transition speed of weight transfer? IE, teetering on rocks and drops/rises would be more aggressive in a short wheelbase.

 

[BraptorAddict]

Someone had go tell Time Cameron that he's'doing it wrong' on his new buggy (despite the fact that he's winning almost everything). He builds the most state-of-the-art rockbouncers, and his newest (and fastest) machine is IFS.

Also, most of the winners of KOH's are running IFS as well. Oh, and the HUMMER H1.

Personally I just don't think the front suspension technology is going to be the limiting factor in what people do with these vehicles. People drove Land Rover defenders around the globe for decades, and they had less travel (even with a SFA) than the Bronco and they made it work.

 

[395N]

False. Everything I said is objectively true. I created a whole thread on this, go check it out if you want to see the engineering behind it. Not all IFS is created equal as I'm sure you with all your amazing experience has realized not all SFA is created equal. Kinda like that Miller KOH post you added. Also I recommend you watch his interviews, he is very open about the VERY apparent downsides of his SFA at speed, and has toyed with going to IFS, but he loved the predictability on the rocks and that's where his skills shine anyway. I have nothing against that stance.

Bonus: KOH has been run for more than 2 years and I don't think you really appreciate if I flip that argument right back at you with more IFS wins... Both systems are incredibly capable with enough money, experience and that other thing, ENGINEERING! Which I can assure you the new Bronco has more of than any previous factory IFS offroader. Raptor included.

Edit: In this context "After Tires and 4x4 driveline I'd say lockers is the biggest step up in capability" What would you rank above large/aggressive tires, and lockers? In terms of off-road performance improvement on any general 4x4 vehicle? Curious what in my statement specifically lead you to believe I don't know what i'm talking about...

I had a 5th Gen 4Runner with a 2.5 inch lift (Icon coil overs) and 33 inch tires and the articulation left a lot to be desired. Soured me on IFS to be honest. Do you know if the Bronco's IFS is somehow better than Toyota's in this respect?

 

[Vandy]

This video was posted two days ago by RevMatchTV and it does a great job at explaining all this 'who-nilly' to us less intelligent folk.

 

[TeocaliMG]

I had a 5th Gen 4Runner with a 2.5 inch lift (Icon coil overs) and 33 inch tires and the articulation left a lot to be desired. Soured me on IFS to be honest. Do you know if the Bronco's IFS is somehow better than Toyota's in this respect?

Well 2 things I'd mention right off the bat: A lift does not equal articulation, and in some cases it may make it worse, like if the goal is primarily ground clearance and larger tire package. The other obvious item is the sway bar disconnect, this frees up what travel you have to let the rig articulate much more freely.

The big deal for the Bronco is that it is launching with 10"+ of wheel travel, with body packaging for 35's and 37's with minimal lift (very important for suspension usability), and also the optional sway bar disconnect. The aftermarket solutions for IFS can improve wheel travel and articulation over stock but they are still limited by the tire clearances and hardpoint locations. What the aftermarket will be able to do with the huge headstart the Bronco is giving them will be quite impressive I assume.

But you don't have to take my word for it, the RTI score for Bronco is published and it is just behind Wrangler, while both are way ahead of the competition in factory form.

Edit: Let me know if you can find published numbers for the Wrangler, I see independent testing from 450 to about 690. I have no doubt it is at least slightly better than Bronco in both locked/unlocked conditions. I'm just trying to show people that its really not by an astronomical margin. To play devils advocate I bet the aftermarket can squeeze even more twist out of Jeep than Bronco, but this will be more competition than SFA fans are giving credit, and once you want to go faster than a crawl it wont even be a competition...

 

[Denney78]

Someone needs to tell Erik Miller (2 time KOH King), Randy Slawson (2 time KOH King), and Josh Blyler (2020 KOH King) that solid axles don't work at speed.

I live down the street from Trent fabrication (Derek Trent) and they have rigs with both, it’s all in how it’s set up. They are really impressive amazing machines.

 

[TeocaliMG]

I forgot to include this in my last post, but what really makes me think you don't know as much as you like to lead people to believe you do is due to your past posts indicating that the extent of your off road experience is driving around on dirt roads in your stock '87 F250.

If I am wrong, please post up evidence to the contrary.

I commend you for the lengthy write up, I will concede that you were correct on more wins for SFA than IFS, my mistake, I apologize. Though I would like to keep an eye on that in the future.

As for the rest of your write up, there is nothing objectively false, but certainly contestable, but for the most part I agree and the evidence is in what I have already written. We are both obviously strong headed engineers so I don't see a productive conclusion to all of this. I have wheeling experience in old wranglers (stock), jeep liberties (both my own and beat to absolute hell, also stock), side by sides (so good they're boring), mini Baja (just listing because its one of my personal favorites just for the early design XP), and my personal favorite my diesel 4x4 manual TIB sick a$$ 87 F-250. (Surprisingly capable mudder on just 35's, and excellent articulation though never taken to moab/rubicon)

Do I have the most experience here? Hell no, but I am fortunate enough between my career and my own experience in design, fabrication and masters in vehicle dynamics to know what I am talking about, what is practical, and what is possible.

You pointed out your main gripe being the Bronco's SLA IFS, I too wish we had a modern take on TIB or another more interesting architecture but you sell SLA short if you think whats on the Bronco is basically whats under an FJ or Tacoma. A serious amount of work went into getting more wheel package and wheel travel than on any previous IFS on a midsize and arguably most half tons. And yea i'd call a score of 700 competitive with 693 on the Wrangler which admittedly is probably low balling.

Like I said, we may not agree on everything so I wont try but for the sake of everyone else here I am just trying to show there are legitimate performance reasons for choosing IFS, the decision was not purely for road handling as many incorrectly think. And additionally the IFS you are getting on Bronco is absolutely competitive with a stock Wrangler. And to reiterate a point I have already beaten to death: by the time you are wheeling over 37's and/or particularly hard you are happily swapping out all kinds of hardware anyway

Edit: If you aren't too salty, in 5-10 years (not sure how long it will take to get started and then finish) I will be wheeling my Bronco on a fully custom fabricated chassis, by yours truly, in long travel IFS IRS form and i'll buy you a 24 pack of whatever you want if your SFA (or TIB or anything) rig can do anything I cant. And then afterwards, just for fun i'll run the baja 1000

 

[Mattwings]

Thanks for the shoutout! If anyone has any questions about what I wrote let me know. I get carried away in the details and sometimes don't write as clearly as I would like.

I think is was good. Tire wear would be an interesting addition. In my experience, SFA requires some compromises in design that can be hard on tires if you are trying to generate good on center feel and balanced high speed stability and quick/light steering feel.

 

[Bmadda]

Anybody that thinks Ford chose IFS for the Bronco for any reasons related to performance on or off road is smoking some serious good $hit! It was an economic decision from day one. SFA never had a chance. Sure Ford talked the talk, but when the time came to walk the walk? The "rubicon fighter" has a picture of female genitalia on the fender for crying out loud! They are trying to tell you what happened!

 

[Bronco4lyfe85]

Which axle would be best for going to get groceries?

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