Interesting conversation with dealer re: pricing

[Roger123]

I just ordered at MSRP....no ADM. A brand new release vehicle....if you can get under MSRP....kudos to you and your Dealer. I want it, they have the keys to it (eventually)....they have the King, Queen and Aces.

That's where I'm at, I guess you could screw around until the end of time to save some money, but the dealer is right down the road and it's a new car that's been anticipated for what, 20 years? LOL I just want a clean deal, go in, buy the car and get out.

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[Aman]

I'm sorry, but respectfully, you are very wrong. Sure, there's nothing illegal about a single dealership selling a vehicle at MSRP. But you are missing the key point here: a dealership cannot work with other dealerships in the area to agree, be it written, verbal, or inferred, on setting a price. That's collusion and price fixing, it removes competition from the market, and it's highly illegal. There is nothing imaginary about any of this. There are very specific anti-trust laws set forth by the FTC on this topic.

Would it be difficult to prove without getting anything in writing? Maybe. Do I have any interest in taking this up? No. I'm simply going to change dealerships and move on. But I do take umbrage with you and others insinuating that this activity isn't illegal when it absolutely is. I'm sorry, but this is not an opinion, it's facts.

Dave is correct here. Regardless of whether the dealers agree to charge MSRP, >MSRP, or <MSRP, it is still collusion and illegal.

Let's say a group of unrelated dealers agree amongst themselves to charge $1000 below MSRP. Sounds great for the customer, but screws the dealers that weren't part of the collusion. Collusion is illegal, simple as that.

 

[Brew3x]

With whom? I'm not buying locally but am curious.

I do t want to put anyone on a public forum, like I said they haven’t admitted anything but all the local dealers have the same responses when you ask about pricing. One guy said no local dealer was going to give me any pricing info unless it was my assigned dealer, seems fishy. You can PM and I tell you what they’re saying.
where are you buying?

 

[broncoskip]

I disagree. When you're sitting there with the truck just outside the window, and all the variables are on the table, is the worst time to start negotiating. That's the moment the salesperson starts asking you 'what are you looking for for a monthly payment?' and they start playing magic numbers.

Get a solid PRICE on the vehicle up front or you will end up paying more down the road. Trade in and financing can then be done with or without the dealer at delivery, based on what's being offered. The monthly payment is the result, not the starting point.

@timhood said it better than I did.

They simply cannot play those games with me.

For one, I have done the calculations already, and I memorized them or write them down. In general I know my payment/price before i even call the dealer.

For two, I will walk. I've bought 22 cars, I've walked from a dozen dealerships in that time. Ford is mass producing Broncos. If I don't get one now, I can get one in six months. It's no big deal.

For three, when I get to the finance table I will argue but take whatever they give, asking one key question. "is there an early payoff fee?" Because if they give me a crap rate or terms I can refi it before I make the first payment (and have). Dealers can hide money in the rate, be upfront about you knowing this.

Attached is an excel file I use to do my math before buying. It also helps find hidden fees as you can pull this bad boy up on your phone in the excel app. It has two sheets, one for my state, and one where you have to calculate your own taxes. It's important to know your credit and what rates your credit can pull. In the bottom are Navy federal's advertised rates as of today (January 2021 for you future readers)

 

[ROKBRNC]

Normally, I just sit back and enjoy my popcorn while watching all the whining and ignorance of some on this site. However, I am having a hard time understanding all of the "where's my deal?" and complaining in regards to Bronco pricing on here as of late.

I have bought so many cars in my lifetime that I could have probably started my own rental fleet if I still had all of them. Here's the bottom line, I don't play the dealer game and neither should you. You have to ask yourself what you're willing to pay (realistically) and then have the balls to stick to your commitment - nobody owes you anything, it's your decision. When I see a vehicle I'm interested in buying, I do my research, take a look at the invoice (if possible) and then make an informed decision as to what I'm willing to spend. When I go to a dealership, which I despise to be honest, I don't waste my time with any of the lot sharks. I take a look at what I want to see, set a 'fair' price in my head, then send the commission based sales prick directly to the sales manager with my offer. As soon as they start the ping-pong game of negotiating, I get up and leave. You'd be amazed how quickly they have all of sudden found some additional room in the price to want your business.

Example, my wife needed a new vehicle a few years ago and wanted a Jeep Grand Cherokee Limited. we found one in the color and options she wanted. The dealer wanted $37K, we never sat down in the sales room, even though the sales person really wanted us to go to one of their customer cubicles. I advised them that wasn't necessary and that I'd be willing to pay $33.5, of course then came the "OK" we'll write up the offer and see what the sales manager says. I asked why that is even needed, as I offered a fair price take it or leave it. Of course, after 5 mins, the sales person came back out and said that they would take $35k for the vehicle, I advised them that not only was not an acceptable price, that they apparently have a difficult time in listening to what their customer (me) had said so we would be leaving now and thank you.

Well what do you know, as soon as we got into our car and were on our way out, there was a knock on the window, it was the sales manager and he apologized and said that after reviewing our offer, he agreed that it was a fair price and asked if he could still earn our business. So, we ended up with a brand new Grand Cherokee on that day.

Unfortunately, this is standard protocol for how most dealers conduct business and why dealers in general aren't worthy of the dried poop stuck to my dogs ass and while I realize that the Bronco will be a new and in demand vehicle, at the end of the day, it's your call as to what you're willing to pay for it - don't get caught up in the emotional purchase and be willing to walk away.

 

[gshorn]

I asked my dealer about it while ordering if they were going to get any Bronco's themselves they said oh no way they were told by Ford not until 2025. I inquired about the GT40 in the showroom if it was for sale they said yes they already had multiple 7 figure offers for it, they think they will sell it for 1.5mn I said wow that was happening with Mustang Cobras right and they said yes they priced them all 40k over MSRP and could not keep them in stock sold immediately. Went back to the bronco and they said its all orders right now at MSRP, they think what happened with Mustangs was definitely on the radar of ford hq

 

[broncoskip]

These 4 elements are used by dealers as a "4 Square". They are very experienced at winning while making you think you "won" using 4 square.

1. The dealer wants you to focus on Price, so they can get you on terms. If you insist on $1000 off MSRP, a sneaky dealer can say "sure, you win, I lose, but only if you take their credit/downpayment terms" which will likely be higher than the 2.5% that I am getting.
2. I think that you need to bring up trade early. I am getting a different vehicle today (an AWD 2020 Escape) today and I got $3000 for my 11 year old Malibu (up from their first offer of $2500), PLUS $1800 in "bonus cash" for trade in ($4800 total). Vroom is offering me a much more generous $4000. However, there is a special deal because I am trading in a vehicle. I am coming out $800 ahead by mentioning the trade and then negotiating on the trade, not the new vehicle.

It's easy, really easy.

I buy with no money down. I include my trade. I expect my loan amount, including taxes and any extras I opt to get, to add up less than MSRP.

It's that easy. What's my loan amount? What was MSRP? Is my loan less than MSRP? I got a good deal.

08 Mustang to 09 F150 to 2011 F150, no money down, payments barely went up.

Wife: 08 Edge, 2011 Edge, 2013 Explorer. No money down, payments went up only because we went for the Sport.

More recently:

2016 Wrangler (used) - 2019 Challenger (New), 2021 Bronco. No money down, $700-$800 payment on each.

I love to play the dealership game.

 

[Apples]

Normally, I just sit back and enjoy my popcorn while watching all the whining and ignorance of some on this site. However, I am having a hard time understanding all of the "where's my deal?" and complaining in regards to Bronco pricing on here as of late.

I have bought so many cars in my lifetime that I could have probably started my own rental fleet if I still had all of them. Here's the bottom line, I don't play the dealer game and neither should you. You have to ask yourself what you're willing to pay (realistically) and then have the balls to stick to your commitment - nobody owes you anything, it's your decision. When I see a vehicle I'm interested in buying, I do my research, take a look at the invoice (if possible) and then make an informed decision as to what I'm willing to spend. When I go to a dealership, which I despise to be honest, I don't waste my time with any of the lot sharks. I take a look at what I want to see, set a 'fair' price in my head, then send the commission based sales prick directly to the sales manager with my offer. As soon as they start the ping-pong game of negotiating, I get up and leave. You'd be amazed how quickly they have all of sudden found some additional room in the price to want your business.

Example, my wife needed a new vehicle a few years ago and wanted a Jeep Grand Cherokee Limited. we found one in the color and options she wanted. The dealer wanted $37K, we never sat down in the sales room, even though the sales person really wanted us to go to one of their customer cubicles. I advised them that wasn't necessary and that I'd be willing to pay $33.5, of course then came the "OK" we'll write up the offer and see what the sales manager says. I asked why that is even needed, as I offered a fair price take it or leave it. Of course, after 5 mins, the sales person came back out and said that they would take $35k for the vehicle, I advised them that not only was not an acceptable price, that they apparently have a difficult time in listening to what their customer (me) had said so we would be leaving now and thank you.

Well what do you know, as soon as we got into our car and were on our way out, there was a knock on the window, it was the sales manager and he apologized and said that after reviewing our offer, he agreed that it was a fair price and asked if he could still earn our business. So, we ended up with a brand new Grand Cherokee on that day.

Unfortunately, this is standard protocol for how most dealers conduct business and why dealers in general aren't worthy of the dried poop stuck to my dogs ass and while I realize that the Bronco will be a new and in demand vehicle, at the end of the day, it's your call as to what you're willing to pay for it - don't get caught up in the emotional purchase and be willing to walk away.

The major difference right now is, what we're doing is exactly this. Threatening to move your reservation to another dealership is the same thing as walking out and driving away. A lot of dealers are going to shrug and move to the next schmuck in line. But if you're going to be able to wrangle a better deal on a Bronco, now is the time to do it.

In the same vein, the involuntary order conversion they tried to pull earlier this week, is the equivalent of tying you to the dealership chair until you sign the paperwork.

 

[gryphon1231]

I have been working through my build with my local dealership. Throughout the process, they have been super vague on pricing. My sales rep is working on the build sheet this morning, and I finally forced him to have the pricing conversation. He told me that their dealership made an agreement with all other dealers in the area that they would price at MSRP. I told him, "That's interesting. That sounds a lot like you just admitted to collusion and price fixing, which is illegal per anti trust laws." It looks like I will have to change my order to Granger and lodge a complaint with Ford.

Anyone else have this experience?

For those of you who have switched your dealer, do you need to call them first to confirm that they would accept it, or do you just deal with Ford Customer care, and then sit back and wait for the new dealership to contact you?

PS - I am in no hurry for the truck to arrive. I'd be fine with a MY22.

Sounds like you need to report this to Ford!

 

[smocon73]

I don’t think dealers agreeing to NOT raise prices above MSRP is illegal.

The FTC might disagree with your statement...

https://www.ftc.gov/tips-advice/com...itrust-laws/dealings-competitors/price-fixing


Reasonable price, territory, and customer restrictions on dealers are legal. Manufacturer-imposed requirements can benefit consumers by increasing competition among different brands (interbrand competition) even while reducing competition among dealers in the same brand (intrabrand competition). For instance, an agreement between a manufacturer and dealer to set maximum (or "ceiling") prices prevents dealers from charging a non-competitive price. Or an agreement to set minimum (or "floor") prices or to limit territories may encourage dealers to provide a level of service that the manufacturer wants to offer to consumers when they buy the product. These benefits must be weighed against any reduction in competition from the restrictions.

...

Q: I am a manufacturer and I occasionally get complaints from dealers about the retail prices that other dealers are charging for my products. What should I tell them?

A: Competitors at each level of the supply chain must set prices independently. That means manufacturers cannot agree on wholesale prices, and dealers cannot agree on retail prices. However, a manufacturer can listen to its dealers and take action on its own in response to what it learns from them.

 

[BLTWLD]

I don’t think dealers agreeing to NOT raise prices above MSRP is illegal.

No, but agreeing not to go below may very well be.

 

[LSBronco13]

I have been working through my build with my local dealership. Throughout the process, they have been super vague on pricing. My sales rep is working on the build sheet this morning, and I finally forced him to have the pricing conversation. He told me that their dealership made an agreement with all other dealers in the area that they would price at MSRP. I told him, "That's interesting. That sounds a lot like you just admitted to collusion and price fixing, which is illegal per anti trust laws." It looks like I will have to change my order to Granger and lodge a complaint with Ford.

Anyone else have this experience?

For those of you who have switched your dealer, do you need to call them first to confirm that they would accept it, or do you just deal with Ford Customer care, and then sit back and wait for the new dealership to contact you?

PS - I am in no hurry for the truck to arrive. I'd be fine with a MY22.

Was your agreement in writing or verbal? In Writing always wins. I have in writing (email) invoice pricing with my dealer.

 

[M&M Beer]

I have been working through my build with my local dealership. Throughout the process, they have been super vague on pricing. My sales rep is working on the build sheet this morning, and I finally forced him to have the pricing conversation. He told me that their dealership made an agreement with all other dealers in the area that they would price at MSRP. I told him, "That's interesting. That sounds a lot like you just admitted to collusion and price fixing, which is illegal per anti trust laws." It looks like I will have to change my order to Granger and lodge a complaint with Ford.

Anyone else have this experience?

For those of you who have switched your dealer, do you need to call them first to confirm that they would accept it, or do you just deal with Ford Customer care, and then sit back and wait for the new dealership to contact you?

PS - I am in no hurry for the truck to arrive. I'd be fine with a MY22.

Mine was great told me the price out the door

 

[DUSTYcazOREGON]

That's where I'm at, I guess you could screw around until the end of time to save some money, but the dealer is right down the road and it's a new car that's been anticipated for what, 20 years? LOL I just want a clean deal, go in, buy the car and get out.

I agree. Local dealer just 20 minutes away. Good service, nice staff. The process took about 30 minutes and then we BS'd for another 30. Clean deal and I will own it till I am dead......I guess my Wife's next boyfriend can enjoy it too.

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