Is ICON the only maker of hub centric 93.1 wheels?

[LockedBronco]

Hubcentric is better, stronger, and less likely to vibrate or fail than Lugcentric.

Lugcentric the studs and lug nuts are doing two jobs (clamping and centering) and thus have a higher possibility for failure. (Bending or shearing).

Vibrate?

Bending or shearing is from improper torque and/or abuse

Sponsored

 

[alabamadave]

Did not mean to start a hub mounting debate. Rather was hoping for more 93.1 bore options and/or way to easily search and filter wheels for this. Most sites lack this filter or search. Moreover, many sites only show what is in stock rather than all that can be found in market - tires being another example. To each his own.

 

[LockedBronco]

Did not mean to start a hub mounting debate. Rather was hoping for more 93.1 bore options and/or way to easily search and filter wheels for this. Most sites lack this filter or search. Moreover, many sites only show what is in stock rather than all that can be found in market - tires being another example. To each his own.

Find a set of wheels that fit as long as they are installed correctly you will have no problems

 

[ZipZit]

I used to be an automotive engineer. I once worked on a team that had a problem.

At a particular model year launch, the original design team made a design change. They converted the wheel mounting system from Acorn style lug centric attachment to hub centric. The wheel hubs were bored to a precise inner diameter. The brake rotors / hub system was machined to a precise outer diameter. There was a rubber O-ring attached to the hub that made for an interference fit between the wheel and the hub. The goal was that the wheel was PERFECTLY centered. When a wheel is perfectly centered, there is a noticeable improvement in ride quality on smooth roads.

On those vehicles there was a problem with wheel retention. Sometimes the wheels fell off while driving. After lots of review and testing, we found that the hub centric lug nuts were not providing the correct retention force. Hub centric lug nuts, with flat retention surface require lots of clamping force.

The discerning qualifier is the Brake Spike Test. In the brake spike test, you accelerate the vehicle to 70 mph or so. Then jam on the brakes until you get to a dead stop. Do this ten or twelve times. Check the wheel for mounting issues. (loose lug nuts? lug nut mounting holes worn from round to an arc?) With lug centric acorn shaped nuts, this test never, ever fails. With hub centric lug nuts, if you don't have high enough clamping force you will fail. And here is where we found our issue.

The lug nut centric (with acorn/cone shaped lug nuts) design is MUCH stronger.

The Bronco has lug nut centric design. You don't want the hub inner diameter to interfere with mounting. Hence all discussion of hub centric on this vehicle is just inappropriate. In fact, if you try to force a center, you destroy the integrity of the lug nut retention. Just don't do that. This is not mix and match.

 

[SuperFord]

I used to be an automotive engineer. I once worked on a team that had a problem.

At a particular model year launch, the original design team made a design change. They converted the wheel mounting system from Acorn style lug centric attachment to hub centric. The wheel hubs were bored to a precise inner diameter. The brake rotors / hub system was machined to a precise outer diameter. There was a rubber O-ring attached to the hub that made for an interference fit between the wheel and the hub. The goal was that the wheel was PERFECTLY centered. When a wheel is perfectly centered, there is a noticeable improvement in ride quality on smooth roads.

On those vehicles there was a problem with wheel retention. Sometimes the wheels fell off while driving. After lots of review and testing, we found that the hub centric lug nuts were not providing the correct retention force. Hub centric lug nuts, with flat retention surface require lots of clamping force.

The discerning qualifier is the Brake Spike Test. In the brake spike test, you accelerate the vehicle to 70 mph or so. Then jam on the brakes until you get to a dead stop. Do this ten or twelve times. Check the wheel for mounting issues. (loose lug nuts? lug nut mounting holes worn from round to an arc?) With lug centric acorn shaped nuts, this test never, ever fails. With hub centric lug nuts, if you don't have high enough clamping force you will fail. And here is where we found our issue.

The lug nut centric (with acorn/cone shaped lug nuts) design is MUCH stronger.

The Bronco has lug nut centric design. You don't want the hub inner diameter to interfere with mounting. Hence all discussion of hub centric on this vehicle is just inappropriate. In fact, if you try to force a center, you destroy the integrity of the lug nut retention. Just don't do that. This is not mix and match.

I don’t doubt your experience above, but I’m fairly certain that you are incorrect. Bronco is not Lugcentric.

The use of conical shaped lug nuts does not necessarily mean that a wheel or hub design is lug centric.

therefore, this discussion is definitely not “inappropriate”.

(sorry to OP for sidetracking the thread.)

 

[chtucker]

I used to be an automotive engineer. I once worked on a team that had a problem.

At a particular model year launch, the original design team made a design change. They converted the wheel mounting system from Acorn style lug centric attachment to hub centric. The wheel hubs were bored to a precise inner diameter. The brake rotors / hub system was machined to a precise outer diameter. There was a rubber O-ring attached to the hub that made for an interference fit between the wheel and the hub. The goal was that the wheel was PERFECTLY centered. When a wheel is perfectly centered, there is a noticeable improvement in ride quality on smooth roads.

On those vehicles there was a problem with wheel retention. Sometimes the wheels fell off while driving. After lots of review and testing, we found that the hub centric lug nuts were not providing the correct retention force. Hub centric lug nuts, with flat retention surface require lots of clamping force.

The discerning qualifier is the Brake Spike Test. In the brake spike test, you accelerate the vehicle to 70 mph or so. Then jam on the brakes until you get to a dead stop. Do this ten or twelve times. Check the wheel for mounting issues. (loose lug nuts? lug nut mounting holes worn from round to an arc?) With lug centric acorn shaped nuts, this test never, ever fails. With hub centric lug nuts, if you don't have high enough clamping force you will fail. And here is where we found our issue.

The lug nut centric (with acorn/cone shaped lug nuts) design is MUCH stronger.

The Bronco has lug nut centric design. You don't want the hub inner diameter to interfere with mounting. Hence all discussion of hub centric on this vehicle is just inappropriate. In fact, if you try to force a center, you destroy the integrity of the lug nut retention. Just don't do that. This is not mix and match.

Then why are all of the stock wheels 93.1mm hub bore if it "doesn't matter"?

 

[SuperFord]

excerpt from the Bronco shop manual below describing the process to clean the interface surfaces and apply anti seize to the wheel pilot bore and the hub pilot flange. This is because the design is Hubcentric.

1. 
   WARNING: When a wheel is installed, always remove any corrosion, dirt or foreign material present on the mounting surface of the wheel and the mounting surface of the wheel hub, brake drum or brake disc. Make sure that any fasteners that attach the rotor to the hub are secured so they do not interfere with the mounting surfaces of the wheel. Failure to follow these instructions when installing wheels may result in the wheel nuts loosening and the wheel coming off while the vehicle is in motion, which could result in loss of control, leading to serious injury or death to vehicle occupant(s).
   NOTICE: Make sure to apply a thin coat of anti-seize lubrication only to the interface between the wheel pilot bore and the hub pilot. Do not allow the anti-seize to make contact with the wheel-to-brake disc/drum mounting surface, wheel studs, wheel nuts, brake pads or brake disc friction surfaces or damage to components may occur.
   Clean the mounting surfaces. Apply anti-seize lubrication. Anti-Seize Lubricant (-;XL-2)

 

[JBowles]

Just look at the OEM lug nuts, if they have tapered/conical interface to the wheel they are "lug centric", if they have a flat clamping face they are hub centric.

 

[ZipZit]

Then why are all of the stock wheels 93.1mm hub bore if it "doesn't matter"?

Remember that old movie "All the President's Men" The answer there is "Follow the money". Pretend you are a wheel manufacturer. Tooling and investment money is EXTREMELY expensive. How many bore diameters do you want to manage within your manufacturing facility? Pick one. make it easy. I worked on that particular job in the last century. I don't remember where the industry ended up on best practices and dimensions. But I'm pretty sure there are agreements codified somewhere, someplace, so all manufacturers can meet requirements and not spend money on stupid stuff.

If I'm wrong and this vehicle is hub centric by design, I'm happy to admit my shortfalls. I honestly don't know. I don't have a Bronco that I can look at. I reserved mine in Nov 2020, don't expect it until 2023 or so. If anybody has a Bronco, can you remove one lug nut from the spare tire, look at it and tell us if its a cone shaped lugnut or a flat washer design, that would be hugely helpful. I'm 99% sure its acorn shaped, based solely on that design's strength and the fact that Bronco drivers probably don't care about smoothness of ride on the highway; but that's really me just guessing. Anybody have the courage to remove a lugnut and post a photo here?

An if you don't have the ability to remove a lug nut, take your finger and place it in the lug nut hole on your spare tire (factory released rim, of course...) Is the bottom of the hole cone shaped or is it machined flat?

 

[chtucker]

Remember that old movie "All the President's Men" The answer there is "Follow the money". Pretend you are a wheel manufacturer. Tooling and investment money is EXTREMELY expensive. How many bore diameters do you want to manage within your manufacturing facility? Pick one. make it easy. I worked on that particular job in the last century. I don't remember where the industry ended up on best practices and dimensions. But I'm pretty sure there are agreements codified somewhere, someplace, so all manufacturers can meet requirements and not spend money on stupid stuff.

If I'm wrong and this vehicle is hub centric by design, I'm happy to admit my shortfalls. I honestly don't know. I don't have a Bronco that I can look at. I reserved mine in Nov 2020, don't expect it until 2023 or so. If anybody has a Bronco, can you remove one lug nut from the spare tire, look at it and tell us if its a cone shaped lugnut or a flat washer design, that would be hugely helpful. I'm 99% sure its acorn shaped, based solely on that design's strength and the fact that Bronco drivers probably don't care about smoothness of ride on the highway; but that's really me just guessing. Anybody have the courage to remove a lugnut and post a photo here?

An if you don't have the ability to remove a lug nut, take your finger and place it in the lug nut hole on your spare tire (factory released rim, of course...) Is the bottom of the hole cone shaped or is it machined flat?

The lug nuts are indeed acorn style, but the hub is also tightly fitted like it should. Everything early in on B6G and the Ranger forums indicate that the wheels from the factory are intentionally hub centric. I can't find the B6G posts right now, but will link them in a bit.

There is nothing wrong with using a properly sized hub centric wheel.

This article has a good explanation of the differences and it also disagrees with your statement about lug vs hub centric, acorn nuts don't mean that manufacture didn't design around hub centric.
https://www.machinedesign.com/faste...ence-between-lugcentric-and-hubcentric-wheels

I am biased though... I went hub centric very intentionally.

 

[RainbowStix]

Not sure if someone posted already, but you could get some hub rings if you’re worried about it.
https://a.co/d/13X49Am

 

[ZipZit]

The lug nuts are indeed acorn style, but the hub is also tightly fitted like it should. Everything early in on B6G and the Ranger forums indicate that the wheels from the factory are intentionally hub centric. I can't find the B6G posts right now, but will link them in a bit.

There is nothing wrong with using a properly sized hub centric wheel.

This article has a good explanation of the differences and it also disagrees with your statement about lug vs hub centric, acorn nuts don't mean that manufacture didn't design around hub centric.
https://www.machinedesign.com/faste...ence-between-lugcentric-and-hubcentric-wheels

I am biased though... I went hub centric very intentionally.

I don't agree, but hey where is this going? I will say, quoting an ambulance chaser Ph.D "expert" is not my kind of reference. I read that article as someone selling his services to the highest (lawyer) bidder for lawsuits involving vehicle accidents.

I'd prefer to see the engineering test definitions used to measure "strength". I do agree with the author of that article on at least one point; its critically important to not mix and match the two different designs with hub design / wheel design and lugnut type. In a perfect world, you could machine both in one wheel interface. You'd have to hold tolerances to +/-0.0000X mm. The vehicle sure would run smooth, but it would be hell trying to take a wheel off after some time has elapsed.

From my memory, the most difficult thing was the variability in how the multi-spindle wheel drill machine centered to the ID of the wheel hub, a wheel manufacturing issue. In practical terms +/- 0.5mm from center there would not surprise me. My guess is there is a 1.5mm clearance between the ID and OD of the interface on the Bronco, clearly placing it in the category of Lug Centric Design.

But we could argue all day on this. Doesn't really sound like fun. Probably best done after a trail ride over a beer. And yeah... I'm buying.

By the way, thank you for providing the photo...

 

[AMTRV]

All current Ford light truck and SUV wheels are hub centric.

 

[SuperFord]

Just look at the OEM lug nuts, if they have tapered/conical interface to the wheel they are "lug centric", if they have a flat clamping face they are hub centric.

this is true as pertains to lugnuts. However this is not the only determining factor when it comes to the wheels.

broncos (and lots of other vehicles) have tapered/conical lugnuts but are still hubcentric. The hub on a Bronco has a flange that the wheel fits onto to center it. Hubcentric is better.

 

[chtucker]

I don't agree, but hey where is this going? I will say, quoting an ambulance chaser Ph.D "expert" is not my kind of reference. I read that article as someone selling his services to the highest (lawyer) bidder for lawsuits involving vehicle accidents.

I'd prefer to see the engineering test definitions used to measure "strength". I do agree with the author of that article on at least one point; its critically important to not mix and match the two different designs with hub design / wheel design and lugnut type. In a perfect world, you could machine both in one wheel interface. You'd have to hold tolerances to +/-0.0000X mm. The vehicle sure would run smooth, but it would be hell trying to take a wheel off after some time has elapsed.

From my memory, the most difficult thing was the variability in how the multi-spindle wheel drill machine centered to the ID of the wheel hub, a wheel manufacturing issue. In practical terms +/- 0.5mm from center there would not surprise me. My guess is there is a 1.5mm clearance between the ID and OD of the interface on the Bronco, clearly placing it in the category of Lug Centric Design.

But we could argue all day on this. Doesn't really sound like fun. Probably best done after a trail ride over a beer. And yeah... I'm buying.

By the way, thank you for providing the photo...

Those are Trail Ready aftermarket wheels made to my specifications, including being hub centric.

There was a Ford engineer or supplier on here way back when that I believe stated that the factory wheels were intended to be hub centric...

A beer is always good and I ain't mad , I just believe in going hub centric when possible.

Sponsored