*** REVISED - WARNING***JB4 Tune from Lethal Performance Review on Bronco 2-Door WT 2.7L

[e90steve]

I mean, listen I’m not mechanic and have zero experience with tunes but… I have a hard time believing my wife’s grocery trips in the Bronco is going cause hectic problems. But what do I know. We are not rallying this thing. Hell, it won’t ever even see a normal car wash. Babies you might say.

It's a pretty simple formula, the tune essentially cranks up the boost on the turbo and modifies standard air fuel ratios. Burger or Cobb will say it's more complicated then that (and I'm sure it is), but cranking the boost up is necessary to see these types of gains. I haven't looked into the Bronco specifically, but my guess would be that they have doubled maximum boost pressure and modified the throttle to achieve the numbers they are posting. That's double the stress on the turbo. Average turbos last about ~100k in stock form. It's essentially a very expensive wearable item.

By cranking the boost, you stress your engine's internals beyond what they were "designed" for, and you stress the factory air/fuel management system. Can the stock system handle it? For now yes, but for how long. Even at half throttle, the boost is cranking beyond the turbo's factory limits. I'm not positive, but was told that some of the internals on the Bronco are forged, which will def help handle some additional power. With that said, most likely it is the support items and the turbo itself that will start to go prematurely. Not the engine.

Just look at the all of the tuned turbo 4 cylinder VW's out there and the tuned BMW's. Probably the two most popular manufacturers in the tuning world. They are a nightmare to deal with when you start cranking up the boost and pumping out miles. I had a JB4 and then a Cobb tuned 335i. It was an absolute monster and a blast to drive with the tune, but as soon as you start pushing beyond the factory, here comes the misfires and shadow codes, wastegate rattles, blown turbos, oil making it's way through the charge system, blown charge pipes, carbon build up. It's a slippery slope. I see no reason why the Bronco or any other factory engine would be immune to these issues when tuning.

I am so tempted to run a tune on this Bronco. If eventually I give in, it will be the Ford factory tune. Not because I think they will do anything drastically different than Cobb or Burger, but at least the manufacturer will be responsible when issues start happening as a result. Out of warranty will just be SOL.

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[cf_davey]

It's a pretty simple formula, the tune essentially cranks up the boost on the turbo and modifies standard air fuel ratios. Burger or Cobb will say it's more complicated then that (and I'm sure it is), but cranking the boost up is necessary to see these types of gains. I haven't looked into the Bronco specifically, but my guess would be that they have doubled maximum boost pressure and modified the throttle to achieve the numbers they are posting. That's double the stress on the turbo. Average turbos last about ~100k in stock form. It's essentially a very expensive wearable item.

By cranking the boost, you stress your engine's internals beyond what they were "designed" for, and you stress the factory air/fuel management system. Can the stock system handle it? For now yes, but for how long. Even at half throttle, the boost is cranking beyond the turbo's factory limits. I'm not positive, but was told that some of the internals on the Bronco are forged, which will def help handle some additional power. With that said, most likely it is the support items and the turbo itself that will start to go prematurely. Not the engine.

Just look at the all of the tuned turbo 4 cylinder VW's out there and the tuned BMW's. Probably the two most popular manufacturers in the tuning world. They are a nightmare to deal with when you start cranking up the boost and pumping out miles. I had a JB4 and then a Cobb tuned 335i. It was an absolute monster and a blast to drive with the tune, but as soon as you start pushing beyond the factory, here comes the misfires and shadow codes, wastegate rattles, blown turbos, oil making it's way through the charge system, blown charge pipes, carbon build up. It's a slippery slope. I see no reason why the Bronco or any other factory engine would be immune to these issues when tuning.

I am so tempted to run a tune on this Bronco. If eventually I give in, it will be the Ford factory tune. Not because I think they will do anything drastically different than Cobb or Burger, but at least the manufacturer will be responsible when issues start happening as a result. Out of warranty will just be SOL.

Max PSI boost is +7 to achieve the numbers they state. Map 1 is what I have it on which is +3.5. So half the max

But again, these can be removed completely in 5 minutes and revert back to factory.

 

[e90steve]

Max PSI boost is +7 to achieve the numbers they state. Map 1 is what I have it on which is +3.5. So half the max

But again, these can be removed completely in 5 minutes and revert back to factory.

I get it, I loved the JB4 and swapping out maps. They have also probably modified the throttle to get you into higher levels of boost earlier. Which again just adds to the wear on the turbo even at +3.5. I won't go back and forth arguing for or against it anymore. I sincerely hope no issues arise for anyone, myself included if I talk myself into it eventually. And trust me I'm tempted.

 

[30snack]

I have had nothing but great experiences with Terry at Burger Motorsports. F150, BMW always been great. I hope this is a one off experience as I will be using him again for the Bronco.

 

[77Highboy]

I mean, listen I’m not mechanic and have zero experience with tunes but… I have a hard time believing my wife’s grocery trips in the Bronco is going cause hectic problems. But what do I know. We are not rallying this thing. Hell, it won’t ever even see a normal car wash. Babies you might say.

Short of a proper engineering analysis of the engine's capacities and design ranges, and empirical data measured over time to validate those analysis, anecdotes may be useful:

- No substitute for Cubic Inches (actually there is, in the form of engine management, tuning, and forced airflow, ie turbos and superchargers...they are exactly that...substitutes for displacement).

- In an emergency, power is your friend and steady focus/no panic can save your life (speaking from experience!)

- Tuning a motor will make it less reliable over time (in a sample size of 2, not sure I agree: I have 2 Harleys, both mod'ed with tunes, cams, displacement, and airflow; one failed and the other (2x HP and torque over stock) is still running strong and an absolute joy to ride, hard or "normal" whatever that is).

- A motor is basically an air pump....the more air you move, the more power you make (higher flow intake, exhaust, and more boost, with all other variables managed accordingly, ie ignition, timing, fuel flow, etc).

- There comes a time where rewards of more power overcome risks of warranty issues....for some, day one on delivery, for others just after break - in, and the rest after factory warranty is up, or never.

I admit, I have no data to back these assumptions but here they are:

- Factory motors are engineered to be reliable within a range; and there is "headroom" available over stock for mods without introducing reliability issues (evidenced by my 14 year old 2xHP mod'ed Harley).
- The tuner's value proposition is to deliver more power and torque....they aren't selling gas mileage and reliability gains. Likely that's why they are offering multiple maps to choose from...like pick your poison...if you "turn it to 11", don't blame the amp if you blow your eardrums....operator is in control!
- A good tune setup, from a reputable supplier with great support and track record, SEEMS to be a prudent performance add for relatively low dollars.
- Short of a rip and replace with a Coyote crate motor and trany upgrade, the top line tunes from the likes of Cobb, JB4, Panda, Whipple, et al seem to me in the no brainer / why not category.
- That said, the Ford Performance tune with factory warranty sure seems compelling, hopefully it becomes available to us...would seem to a) validate the notion that the motor has the guts to handle more, and b) removes the worry of warranty issues.

- And even all THAT said, just because you CAN, doesn't mean you SHOULD!!! LOL!

 

[quinnry2]

Has anyone actually seen a dyne chart yet from the JB4?

 

[BigMeatsBronco]

Has anyone actually seen a dyne chart yet from the JB4?

https://tflcar-com.cdn.ampproject.o...2021/08/ford-bronco-horsepower-tuning-5-star/

 

[BigMeatsBronco]

From the dyno graph we can see how much more power is available in the low and mid range...a big difference!

 

[77Highboy]

From the dyno graph we can see how much more power is available in the low and mid range...a big difference!

Since there doesnt seem to be a JB4 run for the 2.1L, can we assume the gain %s would be roughly the same? Seems so I would think.

 

[Drex]

It could possibly be the preference between two similar products, meaning the rep at Lethal possibly had a preference. I don't know what "cold plugs" mean though? All I can say is how impressed I am with this for the past few days. It's incredible.

In these piggy-back installations, typically the actual boost measured is relayed to the CPU via a particular voltage from a sensor. The piggy-back will read that voltage and change it to a voltage corresponding to a different boost level (one that is lower than actual) and send that to the CPU instead, fools the electronic wastegate into running the turbo harder and providing more boost than stock at each RPM/load. Manufacturers build in a safety factor for their engine programming, to make sure you don't grenade your engine with too much boost/timing (or less fueling) as the interplay of those factors can cause the temperatures in the cylinder to skyrocket to levels that will melt the pistons or cause detonation. A manufacturer can add more fuel or less timing (or change the timing events with VVT systems) to keep the temps in a very safe range at the expense of power (the emission concerns are another factor in the factory tune, but it will be beyond the scope of this post).

As the piggy-back systems (and this is a generalization, I have no insider knowledge of either of the mentioned products, although from the dyno plats shown in at least one of them, it appears that boost signal is the about the only item that is 'spoofed' by the unit, or at least the main one), adds boost without changing fueling or timing, it eats into the safety measure of extra fuel and timing retard the manufacturer uses. This makes the mixture in the chamber less rich which will also tend to make more power and it also makes it burn quicker in the combustion chamber, thus retarding the timing requirements to make maximum cylinder pressure at the right time. This has the effect of making the retarded timing from the factory act as if it was advanced. (timing is the same, but the quicker combustion event gets more efficient because it needs less timing to get there.

Effectively more timing and less fuel mean more heat in the combustion chamber and on that spark plug.


Spark plugs come in different heat ranges. If you look at one, you can see porcelain surrounding the electrode. The are designed to that the porcelain gets hot when subjected to the environment of the combustion chamber. That heat is used to burn off carbon and other contaminants from the spark plug electrode. The balancing act is to get a plug heat range that is not so hot that it starts the combustion process before the spark plug fires (pre-ignition/knock), but hot enough to keep the spark plug clean of gunk.

Since the piggy-back device is causing more heat in the combustion chamber for most, if not all, of the compression cycle, it is closer to the point that knock will occur. A factory heat range plug may be hot enough to kick it over the edge, so they want you to use a 'colder plug', means the porcelain will be smaller/further away to keep it relatively colder than the factory spark plugs, it is extra protection to prevent knock. The added heat from the extra boost and all that entails plus the heat from the colder plug is still enough to keep the electrode clean. Without the piggy-back, that colder plug might foul over time and not work well or at all. So if someone says they are using 2 heat ranges colder on a plug, it means they are expecting the difference in plug temps to be roughly equal to the added cylinder temps (very roughly speaking) from whatever timing/boost/fueling changes are made and simply went to a chart and went two plug ranges colder to specify one.

At a guess from the posted dynos, I would estimate that they are spoofing an extra 1.25 PSI of boost at all times on the lower settings. Might be a problem on long highway trips if you are under slight boost and the CPU doesn't know it and stays out of cooling methods, but I would opine it is a very small risk. Same as with the relatively low boost increases, don't see it or the extra spin up on the turbo to cause any significant long term wear, but there will be some, depends on the compressor map (also way beyond the scope here) or a problem with cylinder temps or pre-ignition.

I will tell you that if I was dissecting a blown turbo engine and found colder plugs in it, I would know someone had been cranking up the boost, but not how much. I don't advocate using one of these devices and then trying to cheat Ford into covering a new engine under warranty by removing it after to try to escape detection, but if you are into that sort of rationalizing that it is okay, I suggest you put the original heat range plugs back in (brand new plugs would obviously be new and another red flag)

As to the salesman who claimed the colder plugs would keep the spark from blowing out... well, no. He is misinformed.

 

[77Highboy]

In these piggy-back installations, typically the actual boost measured is relayed to the CPU via a particular voltage from a sensor. The piggy-back will read that voltage and change it to a voltage corresponding to a different boost level (one that is lower than actual) and send that to the CPU instead, fools the electronic wastegate into running the turbo harder and providing more boost than stock at each RPM/load. Manufacturers build in a safety factor for their engine programming, to make sure you don't grenade your engine with too much boost/timing (or less fueling) as the interplay of those factors can cause the temperatures in the cylinder to skyrocket to levels that will melt the pistons or cause detonation. A manufacturer can add more fuel or less timing (or change the timing events with VVT systems) to keep the temps in a very safe range at the expense of power (the emission concerns are another factor in the factory tune, but it will be beyond the scope of this post).

As the piggy-back systems (and this is a generalization, I have no insider knowledge of either of the mentioned products, although from the dyno plats shown in at least one of them, it appears that boost signal is the about the only item that is 'spoofed' by the unit, or at least the main one), adds boost without changing fueling or timing, it eats into the safety measure of extra fuel and timing retard the manufacturer uses. This makes the mixture in the chamber less rich which will also tend to make more power and it also makes it burn quicker in the combustion chamber, thus retarding the timing requirements to make maximum cylinder pressure at the right time. This has the effect of making the retarded timing from the factory act as if it was advanced. (timing is the same, but the quicker combustion event gets more efficient because it needs less timing to get there.

Effectively more timing and less fuel mean more heat in the combustion chamber and on that spark plug.


Spark plugs come in different heat ranges. If you look at one, you can see porcelain surrounding the electrode. The are designed to that the porcelain gets hot when subjected to the environment of the combustion chamber. That heat is used to burn off carbon and other contaminants from the spark plug electrode. The balancing act is to get a plug heat range that is not so hot that it starts the combustion process before the spark plug fires (pre-ignition/knock), but hot enough to keep the spark plug clean of gunk.

Since the piggy-back device is causing more heat in the combustion chamber for most, if not all, of the compression cycle, it is closer to the point that knock will occur. A factory heat range plug may be hot enough to kick it over the edge, so they want you to use a 'colder plug', means the porcelain will be smaller/further away to keep it relatively colder than the factory spark plugs, it is extra protection to prevent knock. The added heat from the extra boost and all that entails plus the heat from the colder plug is still enough to keep the electrode clean. Without the piggy-back, that colder plug might foul over time and not work well or at all. So if someone says they are using 2 heat ranges colder on a plug, it means they are expecting the difference in plug temps to be roughly equal to the added cylinder temps (very roughly speaking) from whatever timing/boost/fueling changes are made and simply went to a chart and went two plug ranges colder to specify one.

At a guess from the posted dynos, I would estimate that they are spoofing an extra 1.25 PSI of boost at all times on the lower settings. Might be a problem on long highway trips if you are under slight boost and the CPU doesn't know it and stays out of cooling methods, but I would opine it is a very small risk. Same as with the relatively low boost increases, don't see it or the extra spin up on the turbo to cause any significant long term wear, but there will be some, depends on the compressor map (also way beyond the scope here) or a problem with cylinder temps or pre-ignition.

I will tell you that if I was dissecting a blown turbo engine and found colder plugs in it, I would know someone had been cranking up the boost, but not how much. I don't advocate using one of these devices and then trying to cheat Ford into covering a new engine under warranty by removing it after to try to escape detection, but if you are into that sort of rationalizing that it is okay, I suggest you put the original heat range plugs back in (brand new plugs would obviously be new and another red flag)

As to the salesman who claimed the colder plugs would keep the spark from blowing out... well, no. He is misinformed.

That’s a very thorough response, very helpful. When you say “these piggyback devices”, isnt it the case that jb4, panda, and I suppose others use a harness of sensors which would seem to address the issues you mention? In other words, if the device measures input (throttle, airflow, fuel), then also measures what the engine is doing (boost, temp, ignition, speed, rpm, etc) then wouldn’t that essentially safeguard against bad things happening? What seems interesting is that Ford has used the 2.3L for example in many configs up to around 350 hp, so is the issue that although the motor can produce, the piggyback tunes (may, or may) not accomplish the same gains without risk, depending on how capable they are of monitoring the engine‘s vitals as boost is being manipulated?

 

[2021WILDTRAKCDH]

Like most enthusiasts, I really like the idea of getting a easy powerboost of @80HP for less than a $1K...Sounds great and from what I have read quite a few people have done exactly this....with a piggyback or ECU remap, etc....all with the intent that they need to cover up or hide its use if the engine suffers a mechanical failure / problem....It is honest ? Of course not...I am not a defender of corporate America...lord knows they have taken advantage of customers for years....but that doesn't make it right...a lie is a lie.
If you want the extra power---- ye, s all power increases like this cause more wear/tear and eventual damage ----Own up to your decision to install after market parts and be honest.
I am sure this not a popular opinion but when is lying okay? And no I am not an attorney---just a Dad raising 3 boys to be honest and accept responsibility for their actions. My oldest son asked me what I was reading about on this forum (he is saving up to buy my 2021 Wildtrak when he is 16). Smart kid--- and he is looking out for his investment. I told him about the option to boost horsepower ---he got excited. Then he asked' will it hurt his bronco??? I told him I wasn't sure---maybe or maybe not. If my customers used the logic that it is okay to lie to collect money or to avoid paying a bill, etc...I wouldn't be in business.

I am glad tuners like these exist. They are very useful and can add much better performance---I just don't think lying about what I have done is right. just my .02 .

cheers

 

[BigMeatsBronco]

Like most enthusiasts, I really like the idea of getting a easy powerboost of @80HP for less than a $1K...Sounds great and from what I have read quite a few people have done exactly this....with a piggyback or ECU remap, etc....all with the intent that they need to cover up or hide its use if the engine suffers a mechanical failure / problem....It is honest ? Of course not...I am not a defender of corporate America...lord knows they have taken advantage of customers for years....but that doesn't make it right...a lie is a lie.
If you want the extra power---- ye, s all power increases like this cause more wear/tear and eventual damage ----Own up to your decision to install after market parts and be honest.
I am sure this not a popular opinion but when is lying okay? And no I am not an attorney---just a Dad raising 3 boys to be honest and accept responsibility for their actions. My oldest son asked me what I was reading about on this forum (he is saving up to buy my 2021 Wildtrak when he is 16). Smart kid--- and he is looking out for his investment. I told him about the option to boost horsepower ---he got excited. Then he asked' will it hurt his bronco??? I told him I wasn't sure---maybe or maybe not. If my customers used the logic that it is okay to lie to collect money or to avoid paying a bill, etc...I wouldn't be in business.

I am glad tuners like these exist. They are very useful and can add much better performance---I just don't think lying about what I have done is right. just my .02 .

cheers

Great points!
My idea is that I'll likely be past the warranty (miles) in about 10 months at the rate I drive, and plan on keeping the Bronco for 10+yrs, so the warranty is only gonna last me a fraction of the time I own, drive and enjoy it. I don't lie about its existence or worry about warranty claims either, in fact I left the tuner in place when I had Ford change my oil and adjust the door alignment recently. I think for some people they are worried they might be in the position they feel like they might need to lie about the tuner in the future...
I say I think folks should be more worried about dropping a valve due to production flaws, rather than if their new tune will destroy the engine.
These engines all have safety parameters built into them. For example, a testing engineer might see excessive turbo wear at 30PSI so then they decide to ”keep it safe” by restricting boost to 19PSI...even though measurable wear might NOT occur until 28+PSI...
So like diesel engines, they are built de-tuned with reduced power, reduced RPMs, and reduced torque, to increase longevity, sometimes as much as 50%!!!

So I feel there is a wide safety margin, and something like 20% more power is NOT going to push the engine or the turbos into the accelerated wear scenario folks are so worried about.

 

[cf_davey]

Great points!
My idea is that I'll likely be past the warranty (miles) in about 10 months at the rate I drive, and plan on keeping the Bronco for 10+yrs, so the warranty is only gonna last me a fraction of the time I own, drive and enjoy it. I don't lie about its existence or worry about warranty claims either, in fact I left the tuner in place when I had Ford change my oil and adjust the door alignment recently. I think for some people they are worried they might be in the position they feel like they might need to lie about the tuner in the future...
I say I think folks should be more worried about dropping a valve due to production flaws, rather than if their new tune will destroy the engine.
These engines all have safety parameters built into them. For example, a testing engineer might see excessive turbo wear at 30PSI so then they decide to ”keep it safe” by restricting boost to 19PSI...even though measurable wear might NOT occur until 28+PSI...
So like diesel engines, they are built de-tuned with reduced power, reduced RPMs, and reduced torque, to increase longevity, sometimes as much as 50%!!!

So I feel there is a wide safety margin, and something like 20% more power is NOT going to push the engine or the turbos into the accelerated wear scenario folks are so worried about.

If this was such a big issue, there would be mass threads all over the interweb of turbo and engine issues on all the cars, as they certainly build these tuners for just about everything. After reading a bunch of these, my memories cames back to the several diesel trucks that I tuned almost immediately. I never had trouble with any of them.

 

[Defyfate11]

Mine is a 2.7L. I have it on Map 1 and likely will keep it here as it's substantially more powerful. If I ever try higher with higher octane it would be a one-off or rare occasion.

What about map 2, it is the same as 1 but enhanced . Also I read on a BMW forum that the JB4 seems to activate after 3k RPMs, do you feel that it only becomes alive in higher RPMs or can do you notice the difference at all times?

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