The Pope

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Superstition

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If having a winch, 360 camera, and nanny devices all working in unison is important to you and you are the type of person who doesn’t like to modify your own vehicles I would highly recommend you wait til the MY22 Bronco. I cannot give out more details because I don’t want people I know to lose their jobs but FORD is working on a solution. That being said I have a First Edition, still no build date, that I will still gladly take later this year and will retrofit FORD’s fix when available next year 😉.
Now you're talking! It's massively important to me. I don't want to have leave my Bronco Badlands/SAS in the driveway and instead take my Rubicon on trips where the winch might be needed (which is nearly every damn trip I do as the key word is "might"). I'm already a "99" in the Granger system for a MY22 on the "hope" that this winch/camera shit show gets fixed. FORD ... please make me feel like I didn't buy a $60K Mall Crawler.
 

Dads_bronze_bronco

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Easy… you don’t have any sort of diversity of thought or experience on your teams….

…your expert off-roading team is in one room designing the winch, and your expert technology team is in another room designing the 360 camera…
ZachDanger - Ford Super Apologist going for Platinum! :ROFLMAO:

Wouldn't a happened at Jeep Zach ...
 

Dads_bronze_bronco

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What are you planning to tow? I believe most of the overland trailer weight less than 3.500lb fully loaded.
Don't ever put it past the overlanding crowd to haul moar stuff ...

However, there is a margin thought here - if it can tow 5,000 lbs on road, then towing 2,500 off road has more reliability margin.

Edit: e.g., Basecamp 16x at 3,500 lbs GVWR with more reliability margin ... and then you could go to a Basecamp 20 or lightly loaded Bambi on the road.
 
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ZackDanger

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ZachDanger - Ford Super Apologist going for Platinum! :ROFLMAO:

Wouldn't a happened at Jeep Zach ...
Here's a little bit about me. I solve problems for a living, and when evaluating a problem or mistake, I like to fully understand the situation I'm dealing with, and ultimately figure out the root cause. This is necessary if on top of solving the immediate problem, you also wish to prevent it from happening again or want to develop more efficient ways to respond to it again in the future.

My first rule is never to assume malice. It serves everyone better to approach a situation presuming that the players were doing what they thought was right or their only available option. Understanding a person's motivation is very important, especially when you're trying to anticipate how someone in a similar situation will react in the future, and what we need to do to prevent or counter it. Even if their specific actions are malicious or dangerous, there is usually a "reasonable" thought process that lead them to taking them in the first place. People tend to be supper boring and predictable, and they generally behave in logical ways. (Not that it can’t be stupid, just that it follows logic and therefore can be anticipated and exploited.)

In this winch/camera situation I'm operating under the assumption that Ford didn't deliberately set out to cause a conflict in the two... throw in a little Occam's razor, and it stands to reason that Ford was remiss in not integrating their teams better. You don't know what you don't know, and I'm guessing neither team knew how the other was solving their respective problem.

I've never been accused of being an "apologist" as much as I get on this forum... but if generally assuming the good people at Ford are trying damn hard to make the best out of an unfortunate situation makes me an "apologist"... well, I'd rather be an apologist than an a-hole.

Of course all this is not to say that responsibility for one's actions, or the outcomes of a series of actions, aren't a thing... solving and preventing problems necessarily requires identifying problems, and sometimes those problems are people.

To put it succinctly; a colleague of mine likes to say "no one should have to die for their actions, but some people need to be shot in the face."

;)
 
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Natai

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Nice to see Ford figure out a bumper that allows for adaptive cruise, a winch, and a license plate.

I agree that plate holder is still unattractive, but it's progress over the current version that screws into the body.

Wonder how it will be before this bumper is actually available as an option.
 

ZackDanger

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Nice to see Ford figure out a bumper that allows for adaptive cruise, a winch, and a license plate.

I agree that plate holder is still unattractive, but it's progress over the current version that screws into the body.

Wonder how it will be before this bumper is actually available as an option.
I was under the impression it's just the modular bumper with the same winch mount bolted to the recovery points. (Same one that's on the Overland concept for instance.)
 

Dads_bronze_bronco

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Here's a little bit about me. I solve problems for a living, and when evaluating a problem or mistake, I like to figure out the root cause first, then work out from there. This is necessary if on top of solving the immediate problem, you also wish to prevent it from happening again or want to develop more efficient ways to respond to it again in the future.

My first rule is never to assume malice. It serves everyone better to approach a situation presuming that the players were doing what they thought was the right or their only option. Understanding a person's motivation is very important, especially when you're trying to anticipate how someone in a similar situation will react in the future, and what we need to do to prevent or counter it. Even if their actions are malicious or dangerous, there is usually a "reasonable" thought process that lead them to taking them in the first place. People tend to be supper boring and predictable, and they behave in logical ways.

In this winch/camera situation I'm operating under the assumption that Ford didn't deliberately set out to cause a conflict in the two... throw in a little Occam's razor, and it stands to reason that Ford was remiss in not integrating their teams better. You don't know what you don't know, and I'm guessing neither team knew how the other was solving their respective problem.

I've never been accused of being an "apologist" as much as I get on this forum... but if generally assuming the good people at Ford are trying damn hard to make the best out of an unfortunate situation makes me an "apologist"... well, I'd rather be an apologist than an a-hole.

Of course all this is not to say that responsibility for one's actions, or the outcomes of a series of actions, aren't a thing... solving and preventing problems necessarily requires identifying problems, and sometimes those problems are people.

To put it succinctly; colleague of mine likes to say "no one should have to die for their actions, but some people need to be shot in the face."

;)
I have a career of problem solving too. Sometimes they are very ambiguous and you have to go with what you can extrapolate from clues dropped in many locations.

As for the winch, I can totally see two teams not considering what the other was thinking. And in Ford's case, the electronics team was most likely not coming from and entire brand culture of off road capability first.

Net - they had good intent, but it is a big mistake, because the very person to buy a $2500 winch package, is the same one to go high or lux. The standard or mid folks are the ones who will look to the aftermarket for a more affordable ($1000 or less) winch solution.

You have a role you're playing on here, and it's a good one to keep us balanced when we go flying off the rails with extreme assumptions or emotions. There are people flying in all directions with massive assumptions based of a few words (like all the two doors will get built faster because Ford will prioritize two door MIC production, even though Ford explicitly said both MIC and two door are constrained). You be you. The predictability of you gives me a chuckle though. ;)

As for Ford - I have no idea how they make sense of this place. If they communicate people run in all directions with all sorts of conjecture and misunderstanding. If they don't people run in all directions with all sorts of conjecture and misunderstanding. The tail is bigger than the dog on here for sure.
 

TheWoo

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My first rule is never to assume malice. It serves everyone better to approach a situation presuming that the players were doing what they thought was right or their only available option. Understanding a person's motivation is very important, especially when you're trying to anticipate how someone in a similar situation will react in the future, and what we need to do to prevent or counter it. Even if their specific actions are malicious or dangerous, there is usually a "reasonable" thought process that lead them to taking them in the first place. People tend to be supper boring and predictable, and they generally behave in logical ways.
Amen! It's amazing what a team can accomplish that starts every situation with a presumption of positive intent. And it's amazing what it can do for your own mental health to presume positive intent when someone "harms" you.

To put it succinctly; a colleague of mine likes to say "no one should have to die for their actions, but some people need to be shot in the face."
Um...gonna steal that. Probably will use it today in meetings.
 

ZackDanger

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Amen! It's amazing what a team can accomplish that starts every situation with a presumption of positive intent. And it's amazing what it can do for your own mental health to presume positive intent when someone "harms" you.


Um...gonna steal that. Probably will use it today in meetings.
Ive found that depending on one’s line of work, it can be incredibly apropos to the subject of the meeting.

;)
 

88to21bronco

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To put it succinctly; a colleague of mine likes to say "no one should have to die for their actions, but some people need to be shot in the face."

;)
I just watched Fight Club last night. This quote fits nicely with the ending lol.
 

North7

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My first rule is never to assume malice
As for the winch, I can totally see two teams not considering what the other was thinking. And in Ford's case, the electronics team was most likely not coming from and entire brand culture of off road capability first.
Net - they had good intent, but it is a big mistake, because the very person to buy a $2500 winch package, is the same one to go high or lux.
It has nothing to do with malice or intent, what the automotive industry is missing what is standard in the aerospace industry. We have Project Engineers and Systems Engineers, these are the experienced, knowledgeable engineers that look at the big picture, lay out "system requirements" for the product and then work with each discipline, the electrical, mechanical and software engineers, to assure each persons design element supports the big picture, not their silo.

One project/product I worked on, my boss had me take over from the existing project engineer as he was struggling to get the big picture and deliver the product to schedule. He was a great guy, but he lacked the understanding a Systems Engineer brings to the table, his background, he was an automotive engineer from GM.
 

fschael

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Don't ever put it past the overlanding crowd to haul moar stuff ...

However, there is a margin thought here - if it can tow 5,000 lbs on road, then towing 2,500 off road has more reliability margin.

Edit: e.g., Basecamp 16x at 3,500 lbs GVWR with more reliability margin ... and then you could go to a Basecamp 20 or lightly loaded Bambi on the road.
I'm not an expert by any means about towing. Having said that, I believe the Bronco has a low towing capacity only because of the suspension. I mean, it has the same engine as the Ranger, on the lower option, and it has 7,700 pounds of capacity. F-150 with 2.7 has 10,100 pounds of capacity.

I know that transmission is the slightly different.

Therefore, perhaps with better suspension could have a better towing capacity?? I really have no idea.
 

Dads_bronze_bronco

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I'm not an expert by any means about towing. Having said that, I believe the Bronco has a low towing capacity only because of the suspension. I mean, it has the same engine as the Ranger, on the lower option, and it has 7,700 pounds of capacity. F-150 with 2.7 has 10,100 pounds of capacity.

I know that transmission is the slightly different.

Therefore, perhaps with better suspension could have a better towing capacity?? I really have no idea.
Some day - Ford will respond to this need. Probably not on Badlands or Squatch. There are things we can do to make it more capable, but we cannot change the official rating. So we need Ford to offer something in the future.
 
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