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Callelk

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“Actually EV contribute to increased overall usage of petroleum” Prove it. I’ll take ecological contamination of Lithium Ponds over BP Horizon Events or Valquez. This is currently building several new battery plants. But that’s besides the point, the phone laptop or computer that you are talking on right now has the same “child slave” labor that you are


Cite your claims.
“Actually EV contribute to increased overall usage of petroleum” "Prove it." So you think mining equipment runs on ground unicorn horn?

"I’ll take ecological contamination of Lithium Ponds over BP Horizon Events or Valquez." I'm sure you would!. https://www.euronews.com/green/2022...s-reveal-the-dark-side-of-our-electric-future

https://www.forbes.com/sites/alanoh...-raises-child-labor-concerns/?sh=7939f64f7789

https://www.sej.org/headlines/us-acknowledges-child-labor-electric-vehicle-supply-chain

https://iasj.org/wp-content/uploads...hild-Labor-in-EV-Battery-Production-FINAL.pdf

"This is currently building several new battery plants." Who is? Gotion ?

https://www.euronews.com/green/2022...ities-are-being-sacrificed-to-save-the-planet



NEXT.................
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Callelk

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Gasoline cars pollute the air, which raises the temperature of the planet, and is seriously terrible for our future. Like, really, really bad. Worse than you seem to grasp.
Ah, was waiting it seems for ever for this. But thanks for playing and enjoy your new GAS POWERED Bronco........Ta Ta
 

INFINITE23

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Off shore, AK, you know, all the places we were making strides in domestic production. You are worried about cost? You must not be familiar with the stupid wind projects. The enormous costs that have returns WELL below plan goals. Windmills that have parts all over the US rotting. "Green" energy is nothing but cost and lack of return. So yes, I think I can find places to pull funds from. Where do you think lithium and nickel and all the other materials for batteries and solar come from? Do you know what those mines and refineries look like? Is that ok just because they do it out of eyesight?
Can you show me the breakdown of a lithium mine vs Cobalt mine vs Oil?

Again the windmills which can be recycled now, Siemens has developed recyclable blades, won’t cause millions upon millions of damage to the environment.

Offshore is fine until a rig leaks and now you have fishermen with no fish to catch. Again the solution is not expanded oil. It’s nuclear and Microgeneration
 

HoosierDaddy

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I didn't lose my mind, I just don't see issue with people who employ thousands of people and provide benefits and retirement to the same people getting demonized for making a ton of money. I'd say most of this forum's threads are people complaining about how poorly fords are put together, and how bad the engineers, designers etc. are. Now after masses of this forum complain incisively about the UAW's inability to put a car together correctly yet want more money for their lackluster performance we're going to gaslight the execs and virtue signal for the barely competent. please. you get paid based on skill or station not because its "fair" or because others have more. If you're worth more, earn it.
I was speaking generally and did not intend to point my comment at you.
My apologies.

This comes up at every big contract negotiation, UPS, UAW, USW, etc etc.

Generally speaking, the dialog is , "we" don't like CEO's making 16 years of wages in one week, nor do "we" like when the frontline workers ask for better wages.
I just enjoy the irony that nobody is allowed to win. I also enjoy the irony that 99.98% of the people that side with the CEO'S are actually in the "worker bee" group, they just dont want to believe it, nor do they want to see another worker bee get a better deal than they have.
Oh, the irony....
 

INFINITE23

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“Actually EV contribute to increased overall usage of petroleum” "Prove it." So you think mining equipment runs on ground unicorn horn?

"I’ll take ecological contamination of Lithium Ponds over BP Horizon Events or Valquez." I'm sure you would!. https://www.euronews.com/green/2022...s-reveal-the-dark-side-of-our-electric-future

https://www.forbes.com/sites/alanoh...-raises-child-labor-concerns/?sh=7939f64f7789

https://www.sej.org/headlines/us-acknowledges-child-labor-electric-vehicle-supply-chain

https://iasj.org/wp-content/uploads...hild-Labor-in-EV-Battery-Production-FINAL.pdf

"This is currently building several new battery plants." Who is? Gotion ?

https://www.euronews.com/green/2022...ities-are-being-sacrificed-to-save-the-planet



NEXT.................
Those sources have addressed approximately zero of my points. Honestly I’m impressed.

You have one source that says look at these pictures lithium bad!

And the rest talk about Tesla using slave labor
 

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Pilsner

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Can you show me the breakdown of a lithium mine vs Cobalt mine vs Oil?

Again the windmills which can be recycled now, Siemens has developed recyclable blades, won’t cause millions upon millions of damage to the environment.

Offshore is fine until a rig leaks and now you have fishermen with no fish to catch. Again the solution is not expanded oil. It’s nuclear and Microgeneration

Nuclear is great, but that has been stopped by environmentalists who have zero knowledge of energy production. Micro grids are also great. All I have seen are NatGas. Which happens to be a great byproduct of oil mining. What I can tell you about windmills is that they are not being recycled today. They are rotting. But why would we deploy windmills without thinking that through first anyway? They were sold as the great solution, and guess what? They don't add up. The energy production is well below project goals, to the point that many land owners are not even being paid lease. Regardless oil has little to do with electricity except in related NatGas production. None of this even touches the fact that we simply can't support EVs in quantity. We have rolling blackouts across the country today. This is all a solution looking for a problem. The simple fact, is that we will need oil for a long time.
 

Pilsner

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I was speaking generally and did not intend to point my comment at you.
My apologies.

This comes up at every big contract negotiation, UPS, UAW, USW, etc etc.

Generally speaking, the dialog is , "we" don't like CEO's making 16 years of wages in one week, nor do "we" like when the frontline workers ask for better wages.
I just enjoy the irony that nobody is allowed to win. I also enjoy the irony that 99.98% of the people that side with the CEO'S are actually in the "worker bee" group, they just dont want to believe it, nor do they want to see another worker bee get a better deal than they have.
Oh, the irony....

That is not quite accurate. We don't want laborers making so much that the rest of us can't afford the products they create. That isn't a win for anyone when the industry fails. Labor rates should be market driven, not the other way around.
 

Callelk

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Those sources have addressed approximately zero of my points. Honestly I’m impressed.

You have one source that says look at these pictures lithium bad!

And the rest talk about Tesla using slave labor
Does it matter, honestly do you care? It appears that your only post have been to this thread....nothing else, not in power, tech, market, etc., you seem to have an agenda. Fine, run with it.
 

strawhatguy

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Can you show me the breakdown of a lithium mine vs Cobalt mine vs Oil?

Again the windmills which can be recycled now, Siemens has developed recyclable blades, won’t cause millions upon millions of damage to the environment.

Offshore is fine until a rig leaks and now you have fishermen with no fish to catch. Again the solution is not expanded oil. It’s nuclear and Microgeneration
In my mind, EVs and ICE vehicles were supposed to compliment each other. EVs could take most of the day/work/chore trips, and ICEs the longer fun/utility trips. EVs save gas for these purposes, and ICEs provide an alternative when the power goes out, and won’t stress the grid as much, nor the supply of lithium.
Both are environmentally damaging: EVs are greater on the production side, ICEs on the driving side. Takes about 5 or so years for an EV to break even.

In short though: I want options, I want both. Right now though the focus is on entirely weeding out iCEs by 2035, and raising gas taxes. I sense this myopic approach jeopardizes both. It is certain that things will get more expensive.
 

NatureMan

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Expand our domestic production where? Will you fork over the bill when there’s an inevitable spill?
“Actually EV contribute to increased overall usage of petroleum” Prove it. I’ll take ecological contamination of Lithium Ponds over BP Horizon Events or Valquez. This is currently building several new battery plants. But that’s besides the point, the phone laptop or computer that you are talking on right now has the same “child slave” labor that you are


Cite your claims.
You have it all figured out.
 

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Snowdogyyz

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In my mind, EVs and ICE vehicles were supposed to compliment each other. EVs could take most of the day/work/chore trips, and ICEs the longer fun/utility trips. EVs save gas for these purposes, and ICEs provide an alternative when the power goes out, and won’t stress the grid as much, nor the supply of lithium.
Both are environmentally damaging: EVs are greater on the production side, ICEs on the driving side. Takes about 5 or so years for an EV to break even.

In short though: I want options, I want both. Right now though the focus is on entirely weeding out iCEs by 2035, and raising gas taxes. I sense this myopic approach jeopardizes both. It is certain that things will get more expensive.
This! Options are good. EV’s can have a purpose and so can ICE’s. The feds are trying to put the cart before the horse. They’re going to push this on the general public who largely can’t afford it and before the infrastructure is in place to handle it. Plus the charging tech is not there. If you can’t charge to nearly full capacity in the same time you can fill up with gas- that’s a problem. Getting everyone on the Tesla chargers is a good start.
Let’s also remember that the power to charge EV’s comes from the electrical grid which is already stressed. Not to mention that electricity is mostly not cleanly produced. My neighbor is an EV engineer working on the charging/battery side and his two brand new cars are ICE. As he told me- the tech is not there yet- but we’re working on it.
 

shoelessjoe

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That is not quite accurate. We don't want laborers making so much that the rest of us can't afford the products they create. That isn't a win for anyone when the industry fails. Labor rates should be market driven, not the other way around.
The laborers that make the vehicles can't afford to buy the vehicles they make.
 

vrtical

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This! Options are good. EV’s can have a purpose and so can ICE’s. The feds are trying to put the cart before the horse. They’re going to push this on the general public who largely can’t afford it and before the infrastructure is in place to handle it. Plus the charging tech is not there. If you can’t charge to nearly full capacity in the same time you can fill up with gas- that’s a problem. Getting everyone on the Tesla chargers is a good start.
Let’s also remember that the power to charge EV’s comes from the electrical grid which is already stressed. Not to mention that electricity is mostly not cleanly produced. My neighbor is an EV engineer working on the charging/battery side and his two brand new cars are ICE. As he told me- the tech is not there yet- but we’re working on it.
You got that right specially when we already have forced rolling blackouts to protect infrastructures. I had my power cut twice this summer on a 20 min increment, its not that bothersome except I WFH, but they will increase in length or failure when you start plugging everything in. There are a lot of pieces to the puzzle that need to be mitigated before "we" just start forcing regulations.
 

Bikeric

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The laborers that make the vehicles can't afford to buy the vehicles they make.
I'm not sure what that has to do with anything. If I had to pay the laborer's that built my house enough for them to afford it I wouldn't be able to afford it myself. Are we now going to ensure that all UAW members can afford to buy $100,000+ BRaptor's? Won't that turn them into $150,000 Braptor's?
 

Sherminiator

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This! Options are good. EV’s can have a purpose and so can ICE’s. The feds are trying to put the cart before the horse. They’re going to push this on the general public who largely can’t afford it and before the infrastructure is in place to handle it. Plus the charging tech is not there. If you can’t charge to nearly full capacity in the same time you can fill up with gas- that’s a problem. Getting everyone on the Tesla chargers is a good start.
Let’s also remember that the power to charge EV’s comes from the electrical grid which is already stressed. Not to mention that electricity is mostly not cleanly produced. My neighbor is an EV engineer working on the charging/battery side and his two brand new cars are ICE. As he told me- the tech is not there yet- but we’re working on it.
Couple of things:

There are millions/billions being spent on putting in charging stations across the country by the federal government. In my neck of the woods I've noticed a huge increase in areas to charge at over the past 12 months...local Wawas getting Tesla SuperChargers and Targets putting in Level 2 chargers in their parking lots...we have a decent penetration of EVs in the area...mostly Teslas and Mach Es.

Electric power generation by more green methods is being rolled out across the country. I've driven from San Antonio to Kingsville TX and the amount of windmills being put in is crazy...they keep multiplying every time I go there. My home state has about 50% of its power from nukes with the rest being Natural Gas and smaller (10%) being renewables and other things. The governor wants to get rid of NG by 2035, which I find laughable, esp with the off shore Wind Turbine project running into major issues. The biggest issue with renewables is storing the power-lots of mechanical battery options out there, but no one has nailed down the most effective/efficient way of doing it yet to store that extra power.

I saw the current administration wants 50% of new car sales to be EVs by 2030....I'd say that is possible (we are at 7% currently I think) but pricing needs to come down to what an equivalent ICE product costs and the charging situation needs to be improved across the country.
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