Why can't Ford fix the cam phaser issue?

[HotLap]

I still wonder about the oil being a contributor to this. Though it is a miniscule sample base, I wonder how many here who have had a cam phaser issue at low mileage have followed the iOLM for the first oil change.

5W-30 dropping down to a 20 grade in 1,000 miles is not a good thing. My first 1,000 was from Dallas where I bought it to Colorado Springs--so all highway miles where the stress on the engine is the least.

It would be very interesting to see what the viscosity would be at 5K miles or so. I did not wait and changed mine as soon as I hit 1K. I am glad that I did.

Ditto, on the Raptor I changed oil (Mobil 1 full syn) after 1st change at 2k miles, then every 7K miles thereafter. On my Bronco, 1st change was at 1k miles and will be changing every 5K miles from here on out. Likely overkill, but not looking to run into the cam phaser issue. Still using Mobil 1 full syn and installed a Ronin drain plug that is very convenient when draining oil. Also the top mounted oil filter on the 2.7 makes It easy to change!

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[1970AMCAMX]

Serious question, not sure if it has been asked. Is there a reason Ford can't seem to fix the cam phasor issue. Reading on here it seems there are failures on 23 year models with low mileage. I know there has been an part update but it has not seemed to fix the issue. Ford is not the only manufacture to have cam phasors but I don't believe I have read of other manufacture failures as common. This is not a bash, I just don't get why it is so hard to solve the issue? What am I missing?

Also is it true the engine must be removed to make this repair? I know the F150's are completed in frame.

 

[Ducati1098]

Is that some real product in a store ?
Or photoshop special

It’s photoshopped.

 

[Tyistick]

It sounds like there should be an attorney that will sign on for a lawsuit over this. It's pretty obvious Ford isn't making any changes to the design flaw

 

[Madman1133]

I am inclined to believe it is an oil flow design flaw between the V6 engine and its phaser. The in-line engine does not have the problem yet I find it hard to believe the phaser itself is that much better of a design. If it was the phaser design alone that was the issue for the V6 engine, then that is solvable. It is a bolt on part that the design can easily be changed. Very little cost respectively. If it is an oil flow issue with how the heads and block are routed then that is a different more costly issue.
But, being that Ford went Gen 2 With the 2.7 I think in 2017, I am sure they would have fixed it. So basically I have no basis for my theory.

Hey, I think you are on the right track here. I have a 23 braptor that cam phasers failed on at 2400 miles. Yeah brand new bronco raptor. I’m not a mechanic but I do know a lot about high performance engines and oil passages.
What I noticed on this engine day one is the oil pressure was never what I would consider normal. It always seemed very low especially on start. My suspicion is that the reason this is hard for ford to fix is that the issue MAY NOT be with the design of the phaser itself. The phaser may be the victim of a quality issue with things like cam bearings. I suspect the clearance is wrong or at least on the verge or being out of spec on some engines and with these light weight oils it just can’t build the right pressure for the phaser. I’ve see LS engines at 700 hp with a rebuild be within GM “spec” that can’t build oil pressure when these passages are are at the high end. Something like .003 on the bearing can cause shit like this.

Just a theory.

one other interesting fact. The jaguar 5.0 engine use to suffer this same fate. Guess who made that engine. lol ford

The engine on my bronco is actually getting replaced. I’m debating going with a heavier weight oil right after break in to see if it helps the oil pressure

 

[Sherminiator]

The engine on my bronco is actually getting replaced. I’m debating going with a heavier weight oil right after break in to see if it helps the oil pressure

You might be creating more problems doing that-on the older modular V8s, if you ran heavier weight oil, it would balloon out the oil filer on the bottom. The Bronco (at least on the V6) use an internal filter cartage so I'd hate to think were that extra pressure would be getting applied to...

 

[Jazer]

Hey, I think you are on the right track here. I have a 23 braptor that cam phasers failed on at 2400 miles. Yeah brand new bronco raptor. I’m not a mechanic but I do know a lot about high performance engines and oil passages.
What I noticed on this engine day one is the oil pressure was never what I would consider normal. It always seemed very low especially on start. My suspicion is that the reason this is hard for ford to fix is that the issue MAY NOT be with the design of the phaser itself. The phaser may be the victim of a quality issue with things like cam bearings. I suspect the clearance is wrong or at least on the verge or being out of spec on some engines and with these light weight oils it just can’t build the right pressure for the phaser. I’ve see LS engines at 700 hp with a rebuild be within GM “spec” that can’t build oil pressure when these passages are are at the high end. Something like .003 on the bearing can cause shit like this.

Just a theory.

one other interesting fact. The jaguar 5.0 engine use to suffer this same fate. Guess who made that engine. lol ford

The engine on my bronco is actually getting replaced. I’m debating going with a heavier weight oil right after break in to see if it helps the oil pressure

Interesting theory. It would make sense, given that a lot of people that have the phaser issue, still have a repeat issue after installation of new phasers... then on the other hand, you have other engines are fine for the duration of their life. It makes sense that the primary source of the problem, is elsewhere.

I love my 2.7, and it's been fantastic for 30k miles now... but it's one of those things that sits at the back of my mind, if one day I'm going to hear that start up rattle. I take oil change maintenance seriously and they are always done early. Part of me wondered if this would help, but at the same time, new engines with barely any miles on em roll out and fail so it doesn't really seem to be related.

Has anyone noticed any frequency connection between full synthetic oils & the blend that Ford uses?

 

[Madman1133]

You might be creating more problems doing that-on the older modular V8s, if you ran heavier weight oil, it would balloon out the oil filer on the bottom. The Bronco (at least on the V6) use an internal filter cartage so I'd hate to think were that extra pressure would be getting applied to...

Yeah I don’t want to cause an issue but here is my understanding of engine oil.

5w30 and 10w30 are both 30 weight oils and the exact same thickness in your engine when it is at operating temperature. The 5w30 is better because it thickens less when cool or cold

My thought is the thicker oil will gain more pressure on start when you need it to build pressure fast. Once it warms up its biz as unusual.

 

[Madman1133]

Interesting theory. It would make sense, given that a lot of people that have the phaser issue, still have a repeat issue after installation of new phasers... then on the other hand, you have other engines are fine for the duration of their life. It makes sense that the primary source of the problem, is elsewhere.

I love my 2.7, and it's been fantastic for 30k miles now... but it's one of those things that sits at the back of my mind, if one day I'm going to hear that start up rattle. I take oil change maintenance seriously and they are always done early. Part of me wondered if this would help, but at the same time, new engines with barely any miles on em roll out and fail so it doesn't really seem to be related.

Has anyone noticed any frequency connection between full synthetic oils & the blend that Ford uses?

So the 3.0 and 2.7 use the same block, same phasers and MAYBE the same bearings. I’d be real curious where you engine oil pressure is on start and at idle. If I’m right, you will see a drop in pressures prior to failure. Bearing wear naturally with mileage. It could be as small as .001 that. Causes oil pressure to drop enough that the phaser get slammed.

if you see oil pressures start to decline do some research into 10-30 weight oil. I personally don’t claim to be an expert on if this engine can run 10-30 but I am curious if anyone has done it. My thought is that 10-30 will give you faster oil pressure at start up to protect your phasers.

again just a theory….

whole situation sucks. I could see an issue like this being hard to solve though as if I were the bearing engineer I would tell the phaser guys to pound sand since my bearing are surviving.

 

[Jazer]

So the 3.0 and 2.7 use the same block, same phasers and MAYBE the same bearings. I’d be real curious where you engine oil pressure is on start and at idle. If I’m right, you will see a drop in pressures prior to failure. Bearing wear naturally with mileage. It could be as small as .001 that. Causes oil pressure to drop enough that the phaser get slammed.

if you see oil pressures start to decline do some research into 10-30 weight oil. I personally don’t claim to be an expert on if this engine can run 10-30 but I am curious if anyone has done it. My thought is that 10-30 will give you faster oil pressure at start up to protect your phasers.

again just a theory….

whole situation sucks. I could see an issue like this being hard to solve though as if I were the bearing engineer I would tell the phaser guys to pound sand since my bearing are surviving.

Us non-raptor peasants do not have built in oil pressure gauges lol

 

[Madman1133]

Us non-raptor peasants do not have built in oil pressure gauges lol

Noooo waaaayyy!!!

Haha never mind than.

I got the raptor for mid 80s it still hurt to pull that trigger but damn it’s sweet.

I put my theory on the general form. I’d love people to comment. Especially around the engine weight. It’s sort of backwards with the heavy weight oil as it takes longer to flow on cold start, which is bad. But the lighter weight oil just seems to not build the right pressure.

who knows. Good luck my man, keep changing the oil often. It can’t hurt. lol

 

[Poppavein]

They designed these engines to run on low viscosity oil, for fuel savings.
I would be leery of using anything other than their recommendation without talking with a Ford engineer first.

 

[Madman1133]

They designed these engines to run on low viscosity oil, for fuel savings.
I would be leery of using anything other than their recommendation without talking with a Ford engineer first.

I wouldn’t normally think about running something other than manufacture recommendations. But in this situation, what’s the worst outcome? Cam phaser and an engine replacement. Just did that on 5-30.

 

[Ducati1098]

Hey, I think you are on the right track here. I have a 23 braptor that cam phasers failed on at 2400 miles. Yeah brand new bronco raptor. I’m not a mechanic but I do know a lot about high performance engines and oil passages.
What I noticed on this engine day one is the oil pressure was never what I would consider normal. It always seemed very low especially on start. My suspicion is that the reason this is hard for ford to fix is that the issue MAY NOT be with the design of the phaser itself. The phaser may be the victim of a quality issue with things like cam bearings. I suspect the clearance is wrong or at least on the verge or being out of spec on some engines and with these light weight oils it just can’t build the right pressure for the phaser. I’ve see LS engines at 700 hp with a rebuild be within GM “spec” that can’t build oil pressure when these passages are are at the high end. Something like .003 on the bearing can cause shit like this.

Just a theory.

one other interesting fact. The jaguar 5.0 engine use to suffer this same fate. Guess who made that engine. lol ford

The engine on my bronco is actually getting replaced. I’m debating going with a heavier weight oil right after break in to see if it helps the oil pressure

Ford uses a variable displacement oil pump. Even if you change the oil thickness, it isn’t necessary going to increase your oil pressure. It’s still going to command a similar pressure based on conditions.

This is why Ford doesn’t add an oil pressure gauge to most vehicles anymore. People assume the pressure is lower than it should be.

I attached a PDF from the workshop manual that better describes the oil system and how it works.

 

[Jms1]

It is obvious Ford has no fix for the cam phasor issue! If they had the ability to improve and fix a bolt on part that would eliminate thousands of dollars in repairs they would. It has to be a bigger issue than the phasor itself. The phasor failure is just the result of the issue. We are still seeing 2.7 cam phasor failures on new vehicles, whether it be Bronco's or F150'S. The problem is not always fixed by installing the updated phasor,, some have had multiple replacements.
I believe we can all agree the phasor stops rattling when oil is present in the phasor. This may take 1-5 seconds and the the rattle stops. I think, and mind you this is just my opinion that there is some sort of oil flow issue at startup if everything is not perfect. This could be cylinder head to block engagement of the oil passage and to the phasor. That's my theory and why the phasor replacement itself may not fix the issue long-term. So, for me what I do it prime the system for the first start of the day. This way the phasor has oil present before the engine fires and rpm's are 500 plus. I believe this may help but have no proof for my hypothesis.
However it is safe to say that there are manufactures in the auto industry that can and are manufacturing cam phasors that do not fail.

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