Would you abandon the Bronco for the FJ?

[Raptor911]

I think I will create a thread that ask the question “what if the sun does not rise tomorrow” and then we can debate that question.

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You mean “Bronco vs the competition” forum?
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[zaki]

I think I will create a thread that ask the question “what if the sun does not rise tomorrow” and then we can debate that question.

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I did not realize the sun was competing with the Bronco in any way???

 

[kodiakisland]

I have owned 2 Fords and 5 Toyotas. I’ll drive the one that gives me the most value.

 

[zaki]

I have owned 2 Fords and 5 Toyotas. I’ll drive the one that gives me the most value.

I want this gorgeous Bronco and hope to add a competing vehicle from Toyota if they are smart enough to make one.?

 

[Jetboy]

They sell 3,000 LCs in the US a year. They sell twice as many LX570, which is still not very good.

Ditching the uber-expensive LCs for a $40-$60k version and keeping the LX for the high end buyer would be a great business decision IMO. Hell, if they dropped the 4Runner, Sequioa, and luxury trim LC and just did the 300 series start at $39k with trims up to $60k they'd probably sell more than those 3 models combined.

I think this is correct. I currently own a 2015 4Runner. Love it generally. But I'm bored. I want something ideally with a modern power train and some updates. Toyota's been completely ignoring the USA market. They just finally even upgraded to auto headlights and for 2021 will finally upgrade from halogens. But still sticking with a 5 speed AT. - Something that really kinda pisses me off is that the 4Runner 5AT is actually the 6AT - but they use a valve body that only has the setup for 5 gear shift solenoid combinations. Anyway - point being that Toyota has pretty much given zero effort to the 4Runner and no new models on the horizon in the next 2-3 years.

LC200's are kinda $$, but also get 13mpg. 13. M. P. G. That's simply not good enough anymore. Fuel is cheap - but still, not good enough. The base model LC200 in almost all other markets is available with a factory snorkle, V8 twin turbo diesel, locking rear diff, and basic interior and it starts around $43k USD. If we could buy the "poverty pack" version in the USA - I think it'd sell very well. And I also think you're right that it could replace the 4Runner and Sequoia. However - in most markets globally, toyota actually has more models. They have a Fortuner that's smaller than the current 4Runner, a Prado 150 that is the same as the current 4Runner/GX460, and then the LC200 that's larger. And finally the LC7x that's about the same size as the 4Runner buy utilitarian more so. So I think there might be plenty of room in the lineup for a smaller body on frame throwback FJ style product, the next gen 4Runner, and a full model lineup LC300 that ranges from $45k-100k. Just like you could buy in Australia or Dubai.

But - that's all speculation. So far Toyota has given no meaningful indication of what even a new 4Runner will be or when, let alone a Bronco/Wrangler competitor. I just don't see it happening anytime soon if ever. And I'm kinda skeptical that Toyota will actually sell a LC300 in the USA at all. Everything I'm reading points to dealers wanting the Land Cruiser badge on an SUV - but nothing more.

The Bronco is possibly on my short list of replacements, but I'm waiting to see when it comes out how it actually is to drive as a daily driver. I already have an FJ40 rock crawler. So Looking for a daily driver/adventure rig. My general experience in a Wrangler is that they're exhausting to actually drive very far. After a week in one -I'm ready to get out and go back to my 4Runner. They're super fun with the top down. Not so fun with road noise and small interior with top up.

I really hope the Bronco top is great. Like super duper fantastic and you'd never know it was a convertible great. If it is - I'm probably in for one.

The hesitations I have - I already have a rock crawler. It doesn't tow much. I do tow on a somewhat regular basis. The 2.7 EB is really compelling to me. Disappointed in the tow rating. I expected more. And I do have concerns with ford reliability. Probably better than Jeep. But also not on par with Toyota. So it's not necessarily a deal breaker, but if Toyota did build a comparable vehicle - I'd probably opt for the better build quality.

 

[zaki]

I think this is correct. I currently own a 2015 4Runner. Love it generally. But I'm bored. I want something ideally with a modern power train and some updates. Toyota's been completely ignoring the USA market. They just finally even upgraded to auto headlights and for 2021 will finally upgrade from halogens. But still sticking with a 5 speed AT. - Something that really kinda pisses me off is that the 4Runner 5AT is actually the 6AT - but they use a valve body that only has the setup for 5 gear shift solenoid combinations. Anyway - point being that Toyota has pretty much given zero effort to the 4Runner and no new models on the horizon in the next 2-3 years.

LC200's are kinda $$, but also get 13mpg. 13. M. P. G. That's simply not good enough anymore. Fuel is cheap - but still, not good enough. The base model LC200 in almost all other markets is available with a factory snorkle, V8 twin turbo diesel, locking rear diff, and basic interior and it starts around $43k USD. If we could buy the "poverty pack" version in the USA - I think it'd sell very well. And I also think you're right that it could replace the 4Runner and Sequoia. However - in most markets globally, toyota actually has more models. They have a Fortuner that's smaller than the current 4Runner, a Prado 150 that is the same as the current 4Runner/GX460, and then the LC200 that's larger. And finally the LC7x that's about the same size as the 4Runner buy utilitarian more so. So I think there might be plenty of room in the lineup for a smaller body on frame throwback FJ style product, the next gen 4Runner, and a full model lineup LC300 that ranges from $45k-100k. Just like you could buy in Australia or Dubai.

But - that's all speculation. So far Toyota has given no meaningful indication of what even a new 4Runner will be or when, let alone a Bronco/Wrangler competitor. I just don't see it happening anytime soon if ever. And I'm kinda skeptical that Toyota will actually sell a LC300 in the USA at all. Everything I'm reading points to dealers wanting the Land Cruiser badge on an SUV - but nothing more.

The Bronco is possibly on my short list of replacements, but I'm waiting to see when it comes out how it actually is to drive as a daily driver. I already have an FJ40 rock crawler. So Looking for a daily driver/adventure rig. My general experience in a Wrangler is that they're exhausting to actually drive very far. After a week in one -I'm ready to get out and go back to my 4Runner. They're super fun with the top down. Not so fun with road noise and small interior with top up.

I really hope the Bronco top is great. Like super duper fantastic and you'd never know it was a convertible great. If it is - I'm probably in for one.

The hesitations I have - I already have a rock crawler. It doesn't tow much. I do tow on a somewhat regular basis. The 2.7 EB is really compelling to me. Disappointed in the tow rating. I expected more. And I do have concerns with ford reliability. Probably better than Jeep. But also not on par with Toyota. So it's not necessarily a deal breaker, but if Toyota did build a comparable vehicle - I'd probably opt for the better build quality.

Thank you for your thoughtful and very informative response.

 

[Jetboy]

Thank you for your thoughtful and very informative response.

Thanks. The new bronco is the first really exciting product in a decade for me. I was really excited about the FJ cruiser... And then it became the fi cruiser. Very disappointing to me. I was expecting the bronco sport to be the product. Im sure the sport is a fine crossover. But meh. Then Ford dropped the real deal. At least on paper it's going to be a home run. Everything I see is looking really great. It might not be right for what I need, but even if not - it's still a home run. Hats off to Ford for not watering it down into another FJ cruiser.

 

[Broncolli]

The only thing now that could steer me away would be a new Defender, done classic style, not what they just released and call a Defender.
Never been a fan of FJ

 

[Funkdoobiest]

Maybe, since Toyota seems incapable of designing their own cars anymore, a new FJ would probably be a re-badged Bronco anyway.

 

[centra28]

I think this is correct. I currently own a 2015 4Runner. Love it generally. But I'm bored. I want something ideally with a modern power train and some updates. Toyota's been completely ignoring the USA market. They just finally even upgraded to auto headlights and for 2021 will finally upgrade from halogens. But still sticking with a 5 speed AT. - Something that really kinda pisses me off is that the 4Runner 5AT is actually the 6AT - but they use a valve body that only has the setup for 5 gear shift solenoid combinations. Anyway - point being that Toyota has pretty much given zero effort to the 4Runner and no new models on the horizon in the next 2-3 years.

This just blows my mind with the 5 spd AT on this vehicle. very underwhelming and out dated for a vehicle such as this in today’s market. It’s like you say, it’s as if they are paying it no mind or don’t care about the market.

 

[Jetboy]

This just blows my mind with the 5 spd AT on this vehicle. very underwhelming and out dated for a vehicle such as this in today’s market. It’s like you say, it’s as if they are paying it no mind or don’t care about the market.

Toyota doesn't care about the North America BOF market - or probably more likely it just knows that it can sell anything it makes and so there's no reason to update. If you can still sell 150k 4Runners a year with a 5 speed AT from the 90's - and make piles of $ doing it - why not? There was nothing else on the market for the last 15 years that could comfortably drive 700 miles to the Rubicon, run the Rubicon trail, and then drive home comfortably on the highway. In other markets - Australia, ME, Asia - they have competitors and the same vehicle has a ton of updates that we don't get. New engines. Modern transmissions. Interior upgrades - and they're all built together at the same factory, so it's purely a matter of not being willing to update the USA models. Toyota fans really needed the new bronco even if they don't buy one. Everyone left the market and so Toyota and Jeep could sit back and do nothing.

The bronco IMO was more than a shot across the bow. It's a legitimate assault on the BOF offroad market. I'd be very concerned if I were FCA right now. The wrangler is super profitable and IMO the Bronco - on paper - is better in almost every way. Can't really say until I drive one. I think the Bronco also has a real market for 4Runner and Tacoma owners who are fed up with not getting any meaningful updates. Toyota literally invented the first 8 and 10 speeds. But it never put them in the BOF models except the Land Cruiser.

The same is basically true for engines. The 1GR v6 was introduced in 2003. Sadly - it wasn't always this way. The v6 used to be offered along side a small v8. And Toyota at the time used to sell OEM bolt on superchargers. The engines are already built for them so they are just a bolt on option. In 2005 the 4Runner v8 with the supercharger was the quickest SUV you could buy in the USA. It was faster than the fastest Porsche Cayenne. And the superchargers were about $3k.... Then in 2010 Toyota drops the v8 and only had a v6 or 4cyl. And no supercharger option. The current 4Runner has almost 100 less hp and well over 100 ft/lbs less tq than what was available in 2003.

At the same time Toyota sits on a 3.5 turbo 6 that is a great engine. But... 10 years later how many trucks is it in? zero. It only comes in a luxury sedan that basically no one buys anywhere.

So for me it's really great to see Ford throwing the 2.7 EB and 10 AT in the Bronco from day one. Someone at Ford cares about the Bronco and they are willing to put the good stuff from the parts bin in it. Not just put some stupid specialty color on it and a matching cooler and call it a day.

 

[zaki]

Toyota doesn't care about the North America BOF market - or probably more likely it just knows that it can sell anything it makes and so there's no reason to update. If you can still sell 150k 4Runners a year with a 5 speed AT from the 90's - and make piles of $ doing it - why not? There was nothing else on the market for the last 15 years that could comfortably drive 700 miles to the Rubicon, run the Rubicon trail, and then drive home comfortably on the highway. In other markets - Australia, ME, Asia - they have competitors and the same vehicle has a ton of updates that we don't get. New engines. Modern transmissions. Interior upgrades - and they're all built together at the same factory, so it's purely a matter of not being willing to update the USA models. Toyota fans really needed the new bronco even if they don't buy one. Everyone left the market and so Toyota and Jeep could sit back and do nothing.

The bronco IMO was more than a shot across the bow. It's a legitimate assault on the BOF offroad market. I'd be very concerned if I were FCA right now. The wrangler is super profitable and IMO the Bronco - on paper - is better in almost every way. Can't really say until I drive one. I think the Bronco also has a real market for 4Runner and Tacoma owners who are fed up with not getting any meaningful updates. Toyota literally invented the first 8 and 10 speeds. But it never put them in the BOF models except the Land Cruiser.

The same is basically true for engines. The 1GR v6 was introduced in 2003. Sadly - it wasn't always this way. The v6 used to be offered along side a small v8. And Toyota at the time used to sell OEM bolt on superchargers. The engines are already built for them so they are just a bolt on option. In 2005 the 4Runner v8 with the supercharger was the quickest SUV you could buy in the USA. It was faster than the fastest Porsche Cayenne. And the superchargers were about $3k.... Then in 2010 Toyota drops the v8 and only had a v6 or 4cyl. And no supercharger option. The current 4Runner has almost 100 less hp and well over 100 ft/lbs less tq than what was available in 2003.

At the same time Toyota sits on a 3.5 turbo 6 that is a great engine. But... 10 years later how many trucks is it in? zero. It only comes in a luxury sedan that basically no one buys anywhere.

So for me it's really great to see Ford throwing the 2.7 EB and 10 AT in the Bronco from day one. Someone at Ford cares about the Bronco and they are willing to put the good stuff from the parts bin in it. Not just put some stupid specialty color on it and a matching cooler and call it a day.

Wonderful post.
I hope someone high up in the Toyota hierarchy reads it and feels like someone slapped him across his face for taking its customers for granted.

Good of Ford to power that slap and I hope a boatload of Broncos are sold because it is only when the bean counters at Toyota see how Ford is making money by giving customers what they deserve that they might get off their lazy arse.

 

[IfIHMadeA2021Scout]

If Toyota could or would create a vehicle that was a updated version of the FJ 40 the way Ford is doing with the Bronco I think it would be more of a threat to the Wrangler than the Bronco. Pick a year in the late '60s and compare what was offered. The CJ and FJ were basically the same vehicle by different manufacturers. The Scout and Bronco had the same relationship in the same target market. Its clear that Toyota copied Jeep and Ford copied International Harvester.

So, if we want to play this game and make the rule to keep the designs based on the classic 60s designs then the FJ 40 would be closer to the Wrangler than Bronco.

To answer the original question, I'd still go with the Bronco even if Toyota nailed it in every way.

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