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Snacktime

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@BigMeatsBronco I agree but 1/4" plate brackets mounted below the axle hitting something at some speed will still deform the axle tube. I crushed 3/16 tubing rock sliders not going to settle on thin steel on something I plan to ride over rocks.
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@BigMeatsBronco I agree but 1/4" plate brackets mounted below the axle hitting something at some speed will still deform the axle tube. I crushed 3/16 tubing rock sliders not going to settle on thin steel on something I plan to ride over rocks.
Well I agree but good luck trying to find any housing anywhere that's thicker than .400 on the rear

Spicers 60 is the thickest available even the 4" spidertrax (Healy uses) is only 3/8...
 

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@BigMeatsBronco I agree but 1/4" plate brackets mounted below the axle hitting something at some speed will still deform the axle tube. I crushed 3/16 tubing rock sliders not going to settle on thin steel on something I plan to ride over rocks.
3/16" = .1875

His tube walls are .400 or more than twice as thick as 3/16". To put this into context, in another life, I worked in the heavy petrochemical industry. 3.5" schedule 80 carbon steel pipe has a wall thickness of .318".

We have parked Manitowoc cranes on it and there was no deflection or damage. The force that would be required to bend .400" tubing from an impact on rocks would be nothing short of massive.
 
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interesting that your pic shows 11/32 and mine shows .400"

20240202_104314.jpg
 

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The extreme Duty Spicer unit that you have pictured above has a tube diameter of 3.5", and .400 thick.... that's almost a half inch thick tubing! comparison both the camberg and spidertrax fabricated 9 in housing uses 3.5 diameter tubing with only a quarter inch wall. for racers like Healy, a 4" diameter version is available too, but still not .400 thick.
attached is a plot of axle housing stiffness normalized to the the extreme duty Spicer D60 (3.5” with 0.4” wall). Wall thickness shown in 1/32” increments. This assumes equal axle lengths and material (elastic modulus). Bending and torsional stiffness are identical when normalized. Not sure where the OEM m220 falls? Need wall thickness and diameter data. But can easily add this. If m220 is a 3” with 0.25” wall it is only about 40% as stiff as spicer D60.

Diameter has a stronger affect than wall thickness. That is likely why the camberg and spidertrax only have a 0.25” wall. Interesting…

of course this is only relevant for stiffness/deflection. @snacktimes point of wall thickness and impact loading still applies.

255B77AD-E222-4C6A-954F-5EC106F37EFE.jpeg
 

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@Snacktime. Attached is a plot of local axle housing stiffness with respect to a point impact load (Rock impact on housing tube). Once again normalized to the extreme spicer D60 tube (3.5” with 0.4” wall). This plot assumes a flat plate response and is only qualitatively correct, but is very representative of the local response (displacement and stiffness). As long as comparing only tubes with tubes and not plates with tubes.

unlike for the global axle bending or torsion response, thickness is king here. 1/4” tube thickness is likely 25% more vulnerable to impact deformation than the 0.4” tube from spicer.

the extreme spicer tube looks pretty stout in terms of bot global and local stiffness.

4100380B-0267-4C07-82FC-6714217DD9F7.jpeg
 

PEGB

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Has anyone found a Bronco specific M220 Truss? easy enough to modify a Jeep one but would be nice to not have to change a truss and know its not going to hit anything on full bump.

I’m really wandering into water I don’t belong in entering this conversation, so forgive me if I’m an idiot here. But I watched a video where Exodus triangulated the rear end of their Bronco, and the truss they needed to weld on made me think of this thread. Would this arrangement kill two birds with one weld?

https://rockkrawler.com/bronco-pro-x-triangulated-4-link-conversion/

Here’s the video:
 
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I’m really wandering into water I don’t belong in entering this conversation, so forgive me if I’m an idiot here. But I watched a video where Exodus triangulated the rear end of their Bronco, and the truss they needed to weld on made me think of this thread. Would this arrangement kill two birds with one weld?

https://rockkrawler.com/bronco-pro-x-triangulated-4-link-conversion/

Here’s the video:
4 link is great and the truss is good, but you still have a relatively weak m220 axle... there's hundreds of threads on this on Plenty of Jeep forms for the past 20 years and it all boils down to what tire you want to run everybody basically says 37/38 is the maximum for the d44m220... it might help to run a truss or a brace or Special cover but the bottom line is that axle is just undersized for 40-in or larger tires.

by the time you beef the tubes, truss the case, address the wheel bearings, and add a cover that has lock thru-bolt to the main caps, you wind up with a marginally strong axle with a Band-Aids all over it.
 

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Nobody uses half inch wall thickness tubing on the Rears anywhere! The half inch thick tubes are always used on the FRONT Dana 60s mostly because they have a smaller diameter tubing.
Maybe Rockwells, but what idiot is going to do that to a Bronco :unsure:
 

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4 link is great and the truss is good, but you still have a relatively weak m220 axle... there's hundreds of threads on this on Plenty of Jeep forms for the past 20 years and it all boils down to what tire you want to run everybody basically says 37/38 is the maximum for the d44m220... it might help to run a truss or a brace or Special cover but the bottom line is that axle is just undersized for 40-in or larger tires.

by the time you beef the tubes, truss the case, address the wheel bearings, and add a cover that has lock thru-bolt to the main caps, you wind up with a marginally strong axle with a Band-Aids all over it.

Thanks for the reply. As I fantasize about long term plans for my Bronco, it flows like this (roughly): Portals ($20k). But then in need to address the 2.0 steering rack. 74weld 3.0 Steering Rack ($6k, $7k w heim tie rods). Wheels and Tires ($2-3k). And now the axles…$15k? I’m approaching MSRP pretty quickly lol. On the positive side, no kids to waste my Bronco money on. Negative side no kids to leave this treasure to lol.
 

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Attached is an update plot of axle tube housing strength and stiffness normalized to OEM SAS m220. Numbers used for oem are 2.75” with 9/32” wall. Got them off internet from Jeep axle. If anyone has actual numbers please include? I can update to be more accurate.

Wheel/tire load factors were generated based on weights and normalized to OEM SAS (34.4” and 90 lbs). 37s assume 110 lbs, 38s are 120 lbs, and 40s at 130 lbs. wheel/tire weight drives ultimate load factors. Load factors included are linear acceleration (f=m a), torsional equivalent (T= I a), and moment arm (leverage) increase. Torsional inertia calculated as I= m r^2 (strongest contributor).

Assuming linear superposition with load factors normalized to OEM. This is extreme worst case but may serve as a reasonable design threshold. Final load factors were 37s at 1.8 times oem, 38s at 2.0, and 40s at 2.5. These wheel/tire thresholds were included on plot.

normalizing everything to OEM allows for scaled comparison and doesn’t require actual loading quantification. It however assumes OEM m220 was designed for 35s at limit state.

This only compares axle housing capabilities. Housing is the most straightforward and simplest to compare from an engineering design point of view. But if the rest of axle is designed around housing strength (flanges, pumpkin, bearings, axle shaft) then all is good. Hopefully aftermarket manufacturers will do this. But doubtful. There seems to a bunch of variations in just housing designs. 🤷‍♂️

Just strengthening/stiffening oem m220 housing doesn’t address other components and seems to become a rather expensive band aid ultimately resulting in alternative weak spots. Poor design philosophy from a systems point of view. Always chasing the next failure point.

the spicer extreme D60 axle tube housing is a beast. Almost 3x stronger than oem. If the shafts, bearings, pumpkin, etc was designed to match then seems like a great bolt-on choice for 40s.

FCA943CE-882C-46A6-BF81-2E8B4D85B06A.jpeg
 

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Attached is an update plot of axle tube housing strength and stiffness normalized to OEM SAS m220. Numbers used for oem are 2.75” with 9/32” wall. Got them off internet from Jeep axle. If anyone has actual numbers please include? I can update to be more accurate.

Wheel/tire load factors were generated based on weights and normalized to OEM SAS (34.4” and 90 lbs). 37s assume 110 lbs, 38s are 120 lbs, and 40s at 130 lbs. wheel/tire weight drives ultimate load factors. Load factors included are linear acceleration (f=m a), torsional equivalent (T= I a), and moment arm (leverage) increase. Torsional inertia calculated as I= m r^2 (strongest contributor).

Assuming linear superposition with load factors normalized to OEM. This is extreme worst case but may serve as a reasonable design threshold. Final load factors were 37s at 1.8 times oem, 38s at 2.0, and 40s at 2.5. These wheel/tire thresholds were included on plot.

normalizing everything to OEM allows for scaled comparison and doesn’t require actual loading quantification. It however assumes OEM m220 was designed for 35s at limit state.

This only compares axle housing capabilities. Housing is the most straightforward and simplest to compare from an engineering design point of view. But if the rest of axle is designed around housing strength (flanges, pumpkin, bearings, axle shaft) then all is good. Hopefully aftermarket manufacturers will do this. But doubtful. There seems to a bunch of variations in just housing designs. 🤷‍♂️

Just strengthening/stiffening oem m220 housing doesn’t address other components and seems to become a rather expensive band aid ultimately resulting in alternative weak spots. Poor design philosophy from a systems point of view. Always chasing the next failure point.

the spicer extreme D60 axle tube housing is a beast. Almost 3x stronger than oem. If the shafts, bearings, pumpkin, etc was designed to match then seems like a great bolt-on choice for 40s.

FCA943CE-882C-46A6-BF81-2E8B4D85B06A.jpeg
I would love to see true 33's, 34's, and 35's on this graph.

The M220 may very well be able to cope with the stresses of the stock OBX wheels and 32" tires... LOL.
 

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This right here is why I've never been a fan of the 9" for offroad and why I'm not doing one in my EB. Good street axle though.
Yup. For my 69 I went straight to the Sterling 10.25" and got an OEM electric locker from a 10.5" for $300 to put in it. She's heavy (400 lbs) but for less than a grand I have a full-floating ELD bulletproof axle with 5.38 gears and disc brakes.

Well I agree but good luck trying to find any housing anywhere that's thicker than .400 on the rear

Spicers 60 is the thickest available even the 4" spidertrax (Healy uses) is only 3/8...
FWIW, this OEM 10.25" has 1/2" thick 3.5" OD tubes :p
 

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I would love to see true 33's, 34's, and 35's on this graph.

The M220 may very well be able to cope with the stresses of the stock OBX wheels and 32" tires... LOL.
I will add those. Glad to see someone else likes “charts and graphs”. Reminds me of the silly Dave Letterman skits. 😂
 
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Yup. For my 69 I went straight to the Sterling 10.25" and got an OEM electric locker from a 10.5" for $300 to put in it. She's heavy (400 lbs) but for less than a grand I have a full-floating ELD bulletproof axle with 5.38 gears and disc brakes.


FWIW, this OEM 10.25" has 1/2" thick 3.5" OD tubes :p
and 8 lug hubs.
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