Coronovirus discussions

[BuckWildOffRoad]

I'm genuinely curious as to these constitutional infringements you which you speak... I suspect you have no concrete examples. Unless you ALSO consider it a violation of your rights for the Fire Dept to prevent you from entering your business or home while it's on fire.

To recap, you believe the media has overblown things; yet acknowledge that average people clearly don't understand how to protect themselves properly or how significant the threat can be in areas that aren't 'mostly' reporting nothing significant AND yet are volunteering to support efforts because the not 'mostly' NBD turns out to not be NBD? (later post, good on you by the way!) About half the mask wearers I've seen out there have been wearing them UNDER their nose. The average person isn't very bright, which is part of the reason the media seems to need to headline the big death numbers and such. Partly because it sells (I worked in TV for a few years, it's painful sometimes!) but also because they can't get the point across to the slobbering majority of their viewers.

Again, I just can't square the curve between these two statements, BUT I'm humbled that you're putting yourself in harm's way for the greater good. Makes me feel good to be a 'MERICAn

Having spent many years on the fire department, generally the reason to put out fires is to protect the surrounding structures/wildland. The original structure on fire is a loss anyways, with few exceptions. When receiving medical care you may absolutely deny help, even if it means you will die...

The First Amendment has ALREADY been infringed upon during Easter church gatherings when the local government banned drive through church services. This was however ruled to be an infringement by a judge already. My point is that the government will try (maybe city, states, or federal), that is why we should remain alert to what is going on and not just bend over because we are in a pandemic. Our rights are still important, maybe more now than ever.

The problem with media causing mass panic is that it only causes mass panic... You gave a perfect example. Even though people are panicked enough to wear a mask, they still aren't protecting themselves.. so why have panic in the first place? I still believe the media to be overblown, no doubt. That's what they do. Reporting a video from Italy as a New York hospital, just because it looked intense? Liars... and thats only when you catch them...

The hospital that I am going to, is currently very slow, they fear the rush is actually going to be non-sick people that are just scared. The problem is that this will clog the ER (where I work) and the true emergencies (heart attacks, strokes, MVCs, etc) they are still happening.

Also, I come home on a regular day and strip down before I come inside and go straight to the shower. I did this long before COVID. But I am quarantining because I can and will always protect my family. Thats why I said that everyone should be doing whatever they can to protect their family and neighbors. There are plenty of "what if's" that I don't care to find out. What if my baby or wife were part of the 0.3% who are serious/die? I never said not to be careful or smart, I just said it is overblown by the media. I don't want panicked people to make more panicked, irrational decisions. That's all.

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[RupertH]

Having spent many years on the fire department, generally the reason to put out fires is to protect the surrounding structures/wildland. The original structure on fire is a loss anyways, with few exceptions. When receiving medical care you may absolutely deny help, even if it means you will die...

The First Amendment has ALREADY been infringed upon during Easter church gatherings when the local government banned drive through church services. This was however ruled to be an infringement by a judge already. My point is that the government will try (maybe city, states, or federal), that is why we should remain alert to what is going on and not just bend over because we are in a pandemic. Our rights are still important, maybe more now than ever.

Again, the FD would stop you if you tried to go into the burning building for non-lifesaving reasons.

In theory, you have the right to do it, but then the 1st responders would be on the hook to rescue you, so there's a potential issue that the courts have clearly decided in favor of that restriction NOT being an infringement. In the same way that shouting "Fire!" in a crowded theater has been upheld as not protected speech, the same is true of behavior that could reasonably harm others. Hence, those weirdos running through grocery stores licking produce are not free-speech activists, they are criminals.

You are right to be concerned however in this case- clearly the Constitution is being abused by this judge! The 1st Amendment states, "Congress shall make no law...", that extends to the non-lifesaving interactions with some space god during a pandemic. Aside from an impact to the profits of said space god's self-appointed talent agents, there's not a good reason to allow those gatherings anymore than the same argument for any other performer- why should they be treated differently?

I'm all for treating everyone equally- it sounds like @Jook13 (sorry dude- I hope things work out in the long run!) could see his livelihood running down the tubes because of this , why should purveyors of religiosity be any different just because their version of Black Friday is Easter Sunday?

 

[BuckWildOffRoad]

Again, the FD would stop you if you tried to go into the burning building for non-lifesaving reasons.

In theory, you have the right to do it, but then the 1st responders would be on the hook to rescue you, so there's a potential issue that the courts have clearly decided in favor of that restriction NOT being an infringement. In the same way that shouting "Fire!" in a crowded theater has been upheld as not protected speech, the same is true of behavior that could reasonably harm others. Hence, those weirdos running through grocery stores licking produce are not free-speech activists, they are criminals.

You are right to be concerned however in this case- clearly the Constitution is being abused by this judge! The 1st Amendment states, "Congress shall make no law...", that extends to the non-lifesaving interactions with some space god during a pandemic. Aside from an impact to the profits of said space god's self-appointed talent agents, there's not a good reason to allow those gatherings anymore than the same argument for any other performer- why should they be treated differently?

I'm all for treating everyone equally- it sounds like @Jook13 (sorry dude- I hope things work out in the long run!) could see his livelihood running down the tubes because of this , why should purveyors of religiosity be any different just because their version of Black Friday is Easter Sunday?

We can agree to disagree, I have no problems with you or anyone on this forum. My reasoning and logic are not the same as your reasoning and logic, but thats totally fine. I wish you and everyone else the best, seriously.

 

[guernsej]

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...mies-after-coronavirus-shutdown-idUSKCN21V185

 

[vintage]

 

[indio22]

Is this what the kids call a flex? Or is it a humblebrag? Possibly both? While your rich friends and no need to work aside, there's a difference between assessing risk and fear- also for the record, fearlessness!=bravery. The average person's risk of infection is moderate, given basic precautions, and hiding isn't the answer, but neither is bravely recklessly sallying forth as if there is no threat. You are correct, those of us who have the ability to assess risk (from what I've seen probably not you) should help those who can't. That becomes more difficult, when there are so many spreading misinformation (I see two groups of fearmongerers- the 'COVID will kill us all!' group and the 'open the economy before we all die!' group. Neither is helpful. Neither is saying that anyone running around yelling 'fake news!' anytime the media says, well, anything that doesn't jive with your particular view on life. (I'm looking at everyone- neither side has cornered the market on BS)

I'm not event going to dive into the subject of who you feel doesn't deserve help, just staple the STD pamphlet through the condom and toss it to the next stupid slut in line...

Humblebrag? I openly give props to persons able to rationally deal with coronavirus fears and help others. Some people are letting their fear of the virus get the better of them. The data indicates non-elderly persons without medical issues (and in particular persons under 21 yrs age), have a relatively low risk from this virus.

Yes some people feel guilt for letting their irrational fear of the virus, cause them to use others to assume their perceived risk. And maybe they lash out at those of us not falling victim to irrational fear of contracting. I'll help those people, even if they less deserve it.

This isn't about being macho or having some deathwish, rather it's about being reasonable and having the strength of character to deal with fear. I said from the beginning this virus situation will ultimately be a test of character.

 

[JimmyDean]

Why do you think there needs to be a vaccine? As it sits and I believe it will be lower when it ends..the new death estimate is 60,000.. That is regular seasonal flu numbers, I don't think it will get over 40,000. Califonia locked in 40 million people for a whole 600 deaths...seriously? That's idiotic ..we in no way can save everyone ..people die. If the economy doesn't come back soon, it's a goner and way more destructive than the Coronavirus. The fastest vaccine ever took 4 years.. When we had the Swine Flu in 2009 ..we had 1 million people infected and 100,000 people died ..no vaccine, no shut down , no panic...wonder why.?...hmmmm... The bottom line is Hydroxychloroquine, Zpac and zinc are crushing Coronavirus, a brand new 1000 patient study revealed incredible results with over 970 patients that had no symptoms within 3 days of taking the medication. At this point that is a game changer.

How're those numbers working out for you now? We'll be at 60k this week, and may not have hit the peak yet. And we also know, have admitted, that these are not the complete numbers, because people died before being tested. Hell, some states, like the CA you talked about, are going to exhume and do autopsies all the way back to december. Also, 60k flu deaths a year is considered a very bad year, and we were lucky to have missed the most of flu season on this thing, it would've been alot worse if it had started spreading in sep/oct time frame instead of feb/mar. And estimates from CDC put 2-3million infected, as of right now.

And, Z-pacs, zinc, and hydrobullshit have all proven to be completely, and utterly, ineffective. Anyone who even though that a Zpac would be effective against a virus needs to give up their human card, because you do not have a friggen brain. Zpac is an anti-biotic. Virus =/= bacteria. in no way, shape, or form would any anti-biotic help vs a virus. But, that's 1st grade knowledge there, did you pass that grade?

And then there is hydrobullshit. Now, I've been mostly a supporter of our commander in chief since day 1. But after the last 4 months? to hell with that. The guy had invested at the start in this hydro-bullshit manufacturer, then started touting up its miracles to bump its stock so he makes money, despite the fact that the fatality rate of the drug itself is worse than this disease (but better than those it is designed to treat), and of there being zero to little evidence that it helped at all.

The only two saving graces right now are that the summer is upon us, and temp+humidity has shown to decrease the R0, and also that the R0 was fairly low (~3), so with a decent enough number of people obeying stay at home, and wearing masks, the R0 has dropped to about 1.2, which is a very slow, gradual growth. With heat and humidity increasing, we should be seeing the R0 drop below 1 within the next week or two. And that means a decease in cases for the next 5 months. until temps drop, everyone has forgotten about this shit, and then it hits again with an R0~3, but with 10-20k active cases (vs the few hundred thousand at the moment), and it is back into the 100s of thousands within 2 weeks before anyone reacts.

Oh, then lets talk about fucking immunity? Zero previous corona-virus's have had a complete immunity, ever. And zero have had a partial immunity that lasts beyond 2 years. So, why is this one going to be different? Herd immunity may not even work with this thing, or not very effectively, just like it doesn't with the common cold (which a few of the virus' that cause that are corona-virus). Without a vaccine, we are looking at a perennial disease with a >0.1% fatality rate. Yeah, 0.1%sounds really small. If 1/3rd of the population catches this every year, similar to other endemic diseases without complete vaccines (flu when the vaccine misses the target, common colds, etc) then that is 100k dead, per year. This would put it at number 5 for highest causes of death per year in the U.S., and this is some conservative numbers I'm spouting. But right now, we have seen a few days where this is the leading cause of death with such things as cancer, heart disease, injuries, averaged out over the year.

If the final tally on the fatality rate even remotely approaches 1%, you are talking 1 million plus dead a year, the highest cause of death by a factor of 2.

So yeah, no big fucking deal.

Oh, right, it mostly only effects old folks, right? I'm 38, overweight but not obese, an alcohlic, but no liver disease yet, no major medical issues. I am,according to the numbers, completely safe. I have less than a 0.03% chance of dying from this thing. But, I love my parents. They aren't as young as me (imagine that...), and are not as in good of health, obese, alcoholics with heart issues...their chances approach 5-7% for their age range. again, much better than not. If you had a 5-7% chance of dying every time you drove your truck, would you still drive every day?

So yeah, get a clue. There are some serious implications on this virus, some of it may get better once we have a better understanding, but as of where things sit, and look, right now, this is not a good prognosis unless we actively curtail activities that will lead to it's spread.

 

[Nickp]

One thing we also don’t know with this is if there are further effects down the road. Like how you can get shingles from the chicken pox, there could easily be something similar with this virus.

I just am absolutely astounded that the same people who think that this virus was manufactured in a Chinese bio weapon facility are the same ones saying we need to re open and it’s all being blown out of proportion. The amount of mental gymnastics that takes...

 

[Timsvtgen1]

How're those numbers working out for you now? We'll be at 60k this week, and may not have hit the peak yet. And we also know, have admitted, that these are not the complete numbers, because people died before being tested. Hell, some states, like the CA you talked about, are going to exhume and do autopsies all the way back to december. Also, 60k flu deaths a year is considered a very bad year, and we were lucky to have missed the most of flu season on this thing, it would've been alot worse if it had started spreading in sep/oct time frame instead of feb/mar. And estimates from CDC put 2-3million infected, as of right now.

And, Z-pacs, zinc, and hydrobullshit have all proven to be completely, and utterly, ineffective. Anyone who even though that a Zpac would be effective against a virus needs to give up their human card, because you do not have a friggen brain. Zpac is an anti-biotic. Virus =/= bacteria. in no way, shape, or form would any anti-biotic help vs a virus. But, that's 1st grade knowledge there, did you pass that grade?

And then there is hydrobullshit. Now, I've been mostly a supporter of our commander in chief since day 1. But after the last 4 months? to hell with that. The guy had invested at the start in this hydro-bullshit manufacturer, then started touting up its miracles to bump its stock so he makes money, despite the fact that the fatality rate of the drug itself is worse than this disease (but better than those it is designed to treat), and of there being zero to little evidence that it helped at all.

The only two saving graces right now are that the summer is upon us, and temp+humidity has shown to decrease the R0, and also that the R0 was fairly low (~3), so with a decent enough number of people obeying stay at home, and wearing masks, the R0 has dropped to about 1.2, which is a very slow, gradual growth. With heat and humidity increasing, we should be seeing the R0 drop below 1 within the next week or two. And that means a decease in cases for the next 5 months. until temps drop, everyone has forgotten about this shit, and then it hits again with an R0~3, but with 10-20k active cases (vs the few hundred thousand at the moment), and it is back into the 100s of thousands within 2 weeks before anyone reacts.

Oh, then lets talk about fucking immunity? Zero previous corona-virus's have had a complete immunity, ever. And zero have had a partial immunity that lasts beyond 2 years. So, why is this one going to be different? Herd immunity may not even work with this thing, or not very effectively, just like it doesn't with the common cold (which a few of the virus' that cause that are corona-virus). Without a vaccine, we are looking at a perennial disease with a >0.1% fatality rate. Yeah, 0.1%sounds really small. If 1/3rd of the population catches this every year, similar to other endemic diseases without complete vaccines (flu when the vaccine misses the target, common colds, etc) then that is 100k dead, per year. This would put it at number 5 for highest causes of death per year in the U.S., and this is some conservative numbers I'm spouting. But right now, we have seen a few days where this is the leading cause of death with such things as cancer, heart disease, injuries, averaged out over the year.

If the final tally on the fatality rate even remotely approaches 1%, you are talking 1 million plus dead a year, the highest cause of death by a factor of 2.

So yeah, no big fucking deal.

Oh, right, it mostly only effects old folks, right? I'm 38, overweight but not obese, an alcohlic, but no liver disease yet, no major medical issues. I am,according to the numbers, completely safe. I have less than a 0.03% chance of dying from this thing. But, I love my parents. They aren't as young as me (imagine that...), and are not as in good of health, obese, alcoholics with heart issues...their chances approach 5-7% for their age range. again, much better than not. If you had a 5-7% chance of dying every time you drove your truck, would you still drive every day?

So yeah, get a clue. There are some serious implications on this virus, some of it may get better once we have a better understanding, but as of where things sit, and look, right now, this is not a good prognosis unless we actively curtail activities that will lead to it's spread.

While I don’t totally disagree with your broad sentiment, ZPacs are quite effective in some of these cases in which the virus causes bacterial pneumonia by way of a secondary infection - much like the common flu does the in some cases. But in any case I’m sure the Mayo Clinic has one hell of a amateur forum for this.. can’t we go back to Broncos?

 

[FirstOnRaceDay]

I’m so sick of Covid at this point!

its only killed~100,000 most of them (80%+) over the age of 60. Roughly the same numbers of the 2017-2018 flu season (94k)
And the number of deaths and ICU cases has flatlined.

remind me again why we have the WORLD shut down for flu season again?

if your that worried. Isolate nursing homes and keep elderly at home. Other than that ITS JUST THE FLU! Only difference is it takes 2 weeks or so to recover vs 2-3 days. But in terms of lethality and who it’s targeting, it’s no different than the average flu season.

 

[JimmyDean]

I’m so sick of Covid at this point!

its only killed~100,000 most of them (80%+) over the age of 60. Roughly the same numbers of the 2017-2018 flu season (94k)
And the number of deaths and ICU cases has flatlined.

remind me again why we have the WORLD shut down for flu season again?

if your that worried. Isolate nursing homes and keep elderly at home. Other than that ITS JUST THE FLU! Only difference is it takes 2 weeks or so to recover vs 2-3 days. But in terms of lethality and who it’s targeting, it’s no different than the average flu season.

a) the 17/18 flu killed 61k estimated, the 94k is the upper 95% , the lower is in the 40k range
b) we are not even in peak season yet for COVID to do its damage give it 4 months
c) very nicely empathetic attitude you have 'well, ya lived a good life, good luck!' really hope people show you more compassion when you need help.

I agree, we should reopen, but stop spouting bullshit to make your point. and masks need to be made mandatory at least for the time being for everyone outside of their home/vehicle (unless they are interacting with like a drive through/curbside pickup then mandatory then). do this for a couple of months and watch the numbers, see if it can be loosened. And be damn prepared to tighten things up again when the weather cools.

 

[FirstOnRaceDay]

a) the 17/18 flu killed 61k estimated, the 94k is the upper 95% , the lower is in the 40k range
b) we are not even in peak season yet for COVID to do its damage give it 4 months
c) very nicely empathetic attitude you have 'well, ya lived a good life, good luck!' really hope people show you more compassion when you need help.

I agree, we should reopen, but stop spouting bullshit to make your point. and masks need to be made mandatory at least for the time being for everyone outside of their home/vehicle (unless they are interacting with like a drive through/curbside pickup then mandatory then). do this for a couple of months and watch the numbers, see if it can be loosened. And be damn prepared to tighten things up again when the weather cools.

I would argue most of the Covid deaths are over reported. Because cdc wasn’t pressuring hospitals to report flu deaths like they are Covid. Deaths are flatlining in America. CDC estimates by end of the year we won’t cross 140k deaths. So a 12 month period for Covid is 140k deaths (probably closer to 120k) and flu for 7 months is 90k+ tell me which is worse??? It’s very hard to argue.

and as I said why didn’t we shut the whole USA down in flu season of 2017-2018 (October threw March) when 90k+ died and 400k+ were hospitalized???

90% of ICU cases and deaths are 60+ years old (JUST LIKE THE FLU)

so again why do we have to shut the whole county down ?

 

[CSSM]

There would be a lot more deaths if we hadn't reacted the way we did. If we do everything right it will all look like an overreaction. That means it is working.

It is much more contagious than the flu and, even with closing things down, Coronavirus has killed at a much higher rate. It has killed more than the flu this year.

The real problem is anti-intellectualism - people not trusting the experts. If the experts say stay home, why not stay home? You haven't devoted your life to understanding viruses like they have.

 

[MaverickMan]

I would argue most of the Covid deaths are over reported. Because cdc wasn’t pressuring hospitals to report flu deaths like they are Covid. Deaths are flatlining in America. CDC estimates by end of the year we won’t cross 140k deaths. So a 12 month period for Covid is 140k deaths (probably closer to 120k) and flu for 7 months is 90k+ tell me which is worse??? It’s very hard to argue.

and as I said why didn’t we shut the whole USA down in flu season of 2017-2018 (October threw March) when 90k+ died and 400k+ were hospitalized???

90% of ICU cases and deaths are 60+ years old (JUST LIKE THE FLU)

so again why do we have to shut the whole county down ?

That logic would be like my wife wondering why the hell she had to go through chemotherapy if the tumors were just going to shrink after 6 months.

 

[Evanm14]

Interesting how the UAW had no chases of COVID when making masks and other safety gear but when it was time to build vehicles "someone got sick"? Hmmm....

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