How can water enter the engine?

[broncabilly]

Not water related. You stated that your independent shop changed the oil and then flushed it and changed again. What did they flush it with? Is it possible that they washed the bearings of lube? That would kind of explain the seizure after a few miles.

I addressed this earlier, but I don't know specifically which brand. There are dozens on the market and it would be really bad for business if they seized engines. Most do have an EP additive to help protect bearings and cams during the process.
It's much more probably related to the water and grit (sand/mud/etc) that ended up in the crankcase to begin with. Flushes are designed to get sludge and water out of an engine, but to thoroughly get rid of grit would take dropping the oil pan completely I would imagine.
Thanks for the thought!

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[Bmadda]

I dont know about the coolant level, but I don't think that had anything to do with it, since it was driven at least 30 miles before it seized. It didn't hydrolock, it seized well after the 'incident'

I think what @HoosierDaddy is saying is what if your mud related incident had nothing to do with it at all? Just happened the block cracked because it was one of the defective ones, and picked that time to do it? Sure...long odds, but not impossible. Should be able to pressure test the cooling system...if it wont hold pressure, yet has no external leaks...then there is your answer. Should check if your engine's build date is in the affected range...that would at least give you a fair argument!

 

[flip]

In for a VIN.

 

[P52Ranch]

The tailpipe was never in the water. And it never stalled. I left it running for a minute or two and decided maybe it's better to shut it off. But it sat there idling with no hesitation whatsoever. I started it back up to help with the tow and same thing, ran fine. After pulling it out, I got a charging system warning. At first it ran ok then stuttered a little bit, that's when I checked the dipstick and yeah there was water in the oil. Immediately went for filter and oil and changed it. But I didn't run it after that, towed to a indy service station who changed oil, flushed it, and changed it again. Dealer did the TSB on the alternator and let it go back to the indy. It started running bad after it warmed up and he checked oil, found metal sheen in it, changed oil again and it seized up.

I do have pictures showing the water level below the headlights, a couple inches over the bumper. I need to measure another sasquatch to see if that's less than 33.5".
Thanks for your time and input.

This situation is quite puzzling. Certainly leaving the engine running may have avoided all of these issues (other than the alternator).
- Typically water ingested through the intake or exhaust (which includes the intercooler charge pipe) would remain on the top side of the engine and not get a significant amount of water into the crankcase. A large amount of water in the intake would most likely hydrolock it on re-start.
- Shutting off the engine while it is partially submerged would lead to more rapid cooling of the crankcase area. That would likely create a vacuum which could suck water that was on the top side down to the crankcase.
- As soon as you pulled the Bronco out of the mud hole, you checked the dipstick and noticed the water in the oil. Was it a milkshake already or was it distinctly water and oil separated? How far did you have to drive it before you went to get the oil changed?
- It's unlikely that any defect with the 2.3 crankcase would also appear simultaneously to the mud hole incident so that can likely be ruled out unless rapid cooling of the block in the water caused a problem. But that should be noticed by a drop in the coolant level.

 

[flip]

I've yet to see one that slugged water and didn't lock or knock almost immediately. It's possible it got enough to bend a rod leading to rod bearing damage later but it would likely have thrown a misfire or crank revolution speed code along with a light knock. If it got water in the intake, there would probably be some evidence of that somewhere in the piping.

The more I think about this the more it makes me feel like the "flush" could've been the contributing factor to the failure. Again, more testing would need to be done to determine the failed causal part to maybe narrow down the cause. Intake smoking, pulling plugs and checking with a borescope for washed piston(s) or cylinder wall damage (bent rod). If this all happened in the bottom end, the cooling system could be pressure tested to verify it was intact which only leaves a couple other possibilities. Those would be water entering through the oil fill, dipstick tube, crank seals (very unlikely) or aliens.

 

[broncabilly]

This situation is quite puzzling. Certainly leaving the engine running may have avoided all of these issues (other than the alternator).
- Typically water ingested through the intake or exhaust (which includes the intercooler charge pipe) would remain on the top side of the engine and not get a significant amount of water into the crankcase. A large amount of water in the intake would most likely hydrolock it on re-start.
- Shutting off the engine while it is partially submerged would lead to more rapid cooling of the crankcase area. That would likely create a vacuum which could suck water that was on the top side down to the crankcase.
- As soon as you pulled the Bronco out of the mud hole, you checked the dipstick and noticed the water in the oil. Was it a milkshake already or was it distinctly water and oil separated? How far did you have to drive it before you went to get the oil changed?
- It's unlikely that any defect with the 2.3 crankcase would also appear simultaneously to the mud hole incident so that can likely be ruled out unless rapid cooling of the block in the water caused a problem. But that should be noticed by a drop in the coolant level.

I didn’t drive it anywhere to change the oil. I left it in the parking lot and changed it there. I was thinking about the cracked head and while unlikely I suppose it is possible, with the temp change of the water and water splashing the engine from the cooling fan.
But if it didn’t have coolant it did a pretty good job driving 30 miles 4 weeks later without seizing until it ultimately did. Who knows.

I can’t say exactly how long it was running before checking the oil. It was running when I got extracted which took a while. I was heading toward the exit, I went over another obstacle and got hit with the alternator light. Then I went to the exit and parked it. I guess it had to be running for 20-30 minutes at least.
the oil was completely emulsified on the dipstick and it was all the way up and even in the dipstick cap top.
I keep asking the dealer how I could get that much water in the crankcase without once stalling if it went in the intake and can’t get an explanation.

 

[Montana Bronco]

I think you should re-post those pics. It was hilarious to see how deep you stuffed the nose of your Bronco into that mud pit.

 

[broncabilly]

I think you should re-post those pics. It was hilarious to see how deep you stuffed the nose of your Bronco into that

I've yet to see one that slugged water and didn't lock or knock almost immediately. It's possible it got enough to bend a rod leading to rod bearing damage later but it would likely have thrown a misfire or crank revolution speed code along with a light knock. If it got water in the intake, there would probably be some evidence of that somewhere in the piping.

The more I think about this the more it makes me feel like the "flush" could've been the contributing factor to the failure. Again, more testing would need to be done to determine the failed causal part to maybe narrow down the cause. Intake smoking, pulling plugs and checking with a borescope for washed piston(s) or cylinder wall damage (bent rod). If this all happened in the bottom end, the cooling system could be pressure tested to verify it was intact which only leaves a couple other possibilities. Those would be water entering through the oil fill, dipstick tube, crank seals (very unlikely) or aliens.

Hi Flip
Why do you think the flush would have anything to do with it? I wanted to have whatever water and contaminants flushed out and replaced with new oil. Flushes are pretty common and widely used in the industry for engine/trans/power steering/radiator.
I have no idea how it happened but everything appears to me that the dirty water started at the bottom and eventually worked its way through the piston rings after wearing away at them. I have no other way to see it given the way the car acted and fired completely normally until the failure. Except for the charging system fault. The Indy did say as the car started running bad the second time he drove it 15 miles (back from dealer) that it threw a code. I can't remember exactly but it had something to do with the timing I believe. Don't know if that means anything because by then I think the internals were pretty messed up.

 

[flip]

Hi Flip
Why do you think the flush would have anything to do with it? I wanted to have whatever water and contaminants flushed out and replaced with new oil. Flushes are pretty common and widely used in the industry for engine/trans/power steering/radiator.
I have no idea how it happened but everything appears to me that the dirty water started at the bottom and eventually worked its way through the piston rings after wearing away at them. I have no other way to see it given the way the car acted and fired completely normally until the failure. Except for the charging system fault. The Indy did say as the car started running bad the second time he drove it 15 miles (back from dealer) that it threw a code. I can't remember exactly but it had something to do with the timing I believe. Don't know if that means anything because by then I think the internals were pretty messed up.

While flushes may be common in the industry, they are absolutely not recommended by Ford. I did a writeup several months ago which included my opinion on so called "flushes" along with Ford's position statements.

Unless there's a condition that requires additional cleaners or chemicals, putting an unapproved chemical in can possibly void the warranty. Who knows what they put in there to begin with but the correct thing to do would be to not drive or run the engine until they found out where the water or contamination got in. Probably should've pulled the valve cover to check for cam bearing cap damage before going further. That would've been after pressure testing the cooling system to make sure it was intact and not leaking coolant in through the oil cooler, cracked head/block. The damage was probably already done by the time it got to the dealer, the indy was just happened to be in the middle of a repair attempt when it finally shit the bed. Things like this have happened to us before and it's just part of the business.

If it could be proved through testing that the oil cooler, turbo seal, head/block, egr cooler was bad, there would be a good case that the repair should be covered and wasn't a result of water ingestion. I can't give you an exact number but it would take multiple ounces of water go through the intake to milkshake the oil but that much would likely also bend the hell out of multiple rods straight away.

 

[broncabilly]

Interesting take on the flushes. I imagine no car brand would ever officially except an aftermarket product being used in their engines, just as they won't accept anyone else's oil or filter. I've seen cases where on an old car a flush loosens some sludge that then gets into a key passage on a transmission and actually hurts performance but I'm not so sure on this new of an engine. I'm 'assuming' that along with the water came in some fine particles of grit or sand and that's what ultimately broke down the engine. I'll recommend testing all that you mentioned, Heck I'd even pay for it if they wouldn't just to get this figured out.

How foamy does emulsified oil get? I mentioned that it was all the way up in the dipstick cap. I think a heck of a lot of water got in...

thank you.

 

[23GR2]

The link I have attached is over a year old however it does describe some issues with 2.7 failures which include an oil pan issue in which an oil tube becomes disconnected and sucks in air. Is it possible that yours sucked in water after being submerged? Link: Ford Bronco 2.7L V6 EcoBoost Engine Failures Explained: Exclusive (fordauthority.com)

 

[swmetal]

How about filing an insurance claim? Not sure, but you comprehensive might cover it. Kind of like if you ran into a tree or backed into something.

 

[broncabilly]

The link I have attached is over a year old however it does describe some issues with 2.7 failures which include an oil pan issue in which an oil tube becomes disconnected and sucks in air. Is it possible that yours sucked in water after being submerged? Link: Ford Bronco 2.7L V6 EcoBoost Engine Failures Explained: Exclusive (fordauthority.com)

I don’t know but thanks for this. I need to get them to explore other explanations, , I think they just went with the simplest.

 

[broncabilly]

How about filing an insurance claim? Not sure, but you comprehensive might cover it. Kind of like if you ran into a tree or backed into something.

I’ve started the process but get this. My insurance wanted to tow it to their facility to look at it. Dealer said if the Bronco leaves the dealer then the power train warranty would automatically be voided. I’m stunned that this could be true.

 

[Silver-Bolt]

Interesting take on the flushes. I imagine no car brand would ever officially except an aftermarket product being used in their engines, just as they won't accept anyone else's oil or filter. I've seen cases where on an old car a flush loosens some sludge that then gets into a key passage on a transmission and actually hurts performance but I'm not so sure on this new of an engine. I'm 'assuming' that along with the water came in some fine particles of grit or sand and that's what ultimately broke down the engine. I'll recommend testing all that you mentioned, Heck I'd even pay for it if they wouldn't just to get this figured out.

How foamy does emulsified oil get? I mentioned that it was all the way up in the dipstick cap. I think a heck of a lot of water got in...

thank you.

You can use any brand of oil and filter as long as they meet Ford's specs. A flush on a modern engine is a bad idea. The tolerances and materials are very different than in years past. As Flip mentioned, no idea what chemical was used. Was the engine run with the chemicals? If would be very easy to wipe away the lubrication from today's very low viscosity oils. You are kind of screwed at this point since you have used a non approved chemical in the oil system.

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