Sponsored
OP
OP
Snacktime

Snacktime

Black Diamond
Well-Known Member
First Name
Nate
Joined
Jul 14, 2020
Threads
55
Messages
2,738
Reaction score
6,021
Location
Sac-a-tomatoes
Vehicle(s)
Bronco, F150
Your Bronco Model
Black Diamond
Clubs
 
So I thought Summit Racing was going to be faster... Ordered 11/24, shipped 11/28, scheduled for delivery next week. Not sure if its a Black Friday thing but this is the longest I have ever waited for an in-stock item.

Ford Bronco Snacktime's Broken Bronco Build 1701273870714
Sponsored

 

Fordified1

Black Diamond
Well-Known Member
First Name
Bob
Joined
Nov 1, 2023
Threads
13
Messages
1,196
Reaction score
2,826
Location
Mid South Texas
Vehicle(s)
‘15 Mustang ecoboost, 4wd Excursion, ‘69 Mach 1
Your Bronco Model
Black Diamond
Clubs
 
I haven’t looked at a front M190 diff but wondering if it can be beefed up with a girdle or something to help with deflection.
Way back in the 80’s when we were testing the limits of the 8.8 diffs in Fox Mustangs, many would choose to beef up the 8.8 instead of swapping to a 9”. There were legitimate reasons for this that I won’t go into now. Many ran a machined billet rear cover that was shimmed to tighten up against the bearing caps and stud’s protruded through the cover with nuts on the outside.

I have run 9”s in pretty much everything I hot-rodded, and even those have different levels of toughness depending on what vehicle they came out of. Most had cast iron housings and 28 spline axles. The drag pack option and some trucks (mostly 4wd including Bronco) came with Nodular iron case and 31 spline axles. I broke some pinion supports (part of the casting) due to deflection. Of coarse theres a miriad of aftermarket versions of the Ford 9” currently.
 

Felix808

Badlands
Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 19, 2020
Threads
41
Messages
3,505
Reaction score
7,101
Location
SRV CA
Vehicle(s)
After 746 days, a MY22 4-door Badlands Bronco :-)
Your Bronco Model
Badlands
Clubs
 
@Snacktime if it makes you feel any better as misery loves company, I've been waiting for a motherboard for my PC that my life is on from the Devil (Amazon). This should have been here Saturday, then Monday. Then guy shows up last night with my package in hand standing 5 feet off my porch telling me he can't release it to me because I don't have the pass code. Mind you I have no computer or account access to get a pass code because it's on my PC that has been dead going on 2 weeks because SCE shuts our power off every other week 🥵 Then the guy says he'll loop around and come back. Yeah that happened :sneaky:

So breathe easy my friend, the world is full of suck 🤠
 

Fordified1

Black Diamond
Well-Known Member
First Name
Bob
Joined
Nov 1, 2023
Threads
13
Messages
1,196
Reaction score
2,826
Location
Mid South Texas
Vehicle(s)
‘15 Mustang ecoboost, 4wd Excursion, ‘69 Mach 1
Your Bronco Model
Black Diamond
Clubs
 
So I thought Summit Racing was going to be faster... Ordered 11/24, shipped 11/28, scheduled for delivery next week. Not sure if its a Black Friday thing but this is the longest I have ever waited for an in-stock item.

Ford Bronco Snacktime's Broken Bronco Build 1701273870714
Summit had everything to do the swap? Do you mind telling us how much you had to spend? I’m sure others will do the same down the road. I’m also curious about your diff drop. Is there a kit?
 
OP
OP
Snacktime

Snacktime

Black Diamond
Well-Known Member
First Name
Nate
Joined
Jul 14, 2020
Threads
55
Messages
2,738
Reaction score
6,021
Location
Sac-a-tomatoes
Vehicle(s)
Bronco, F150
Your Bronco Model
Black Diamond
Clubs
 
@Fordified1 I fully plan to take photos and post what happed. Then we will at least be able to figure something out. I will post the swap photos but I am in $1900 so far with wiring(making home made wiring harness for the locker). My diff drop is a one off that I will be adjusting here with the new differential.

@Felix808 this weekend was my free weekend. I actually held off buying to time the shipping for when I got home. Newegg sucks now...
 

Sponsored

87-Z28

Outer Banks
Well-Known Member
First Name
Andy
Joined
Sep 1, 2022
Threads
1
Messages
431
Reaction score
642
Location
Texas
Vehicle(s)
BMW
Your Bronco Model
Outer Banks
Clubs
 
looks like a nominal dimension for the OEM CV solid axle shaft is 1.25”. Not sure what the material is but likely mild steel, maybe 75 ksi yield. The max torque before failure is probably around 1200 ft/lbs (T=YS J / r). even if it is 2x that (assuming high strength heat treated steel) it should fail in pure torsion before ring gear achieves max allowable. Maybe I am missing something?

Seems to me that failing the fdu internals without CV shaft failure is from excessive internal displacements. Lateral loading from high CV angles, poor lateral bearing support, intermediate shaft flexing. Very curious to see the inside of your M190. You have surely induced very many hours of high lateral loading.

1) Shaft Material
Initially I was focused on improving the strength of the shaft. 300M or some other chromoly steel that would yield a higher strength. Twisting of the splines is the text book failure and weakest point, example is Blanco Bronco. If your twisting shafts, your just exceeding the material strength. Twisting shafts at the clip like Blanco Bronco you had a failure at the place with the lowest cross sectional area. An improved housing would have not benefited this failure as the force was transmitted correctly.

2) Bearings support
When I changed my passenger side seal I noticed excessive play in the bearings. When you have excessive play you get more force transmitted latteraly (see exaggerated diagram below). The extra deflection puts more stress on the housing which could be one of the reason we are seeing a failure of the housing. The axle rides directly on needle bearing with no race. This means no machine fit tolerances so you naturally get some play. We are talking 1-2mm of movement which should not be catastrophic. This does add lateral forces and does contribute to the possibility of housing failure. Now if you add in some force from the cv movement on the end and you can really add some force. Example would be landing off a jump and the shock load transmitting from the cv axle movement into the housing. This force can actual go all the way into the differential as the support bearings do nothing to dampen the force (see 2nd crappy diagram).
1692372547145.png

1692374544509.png


3) Housing design and material
Next is the material of the housing and cast aluminum is just weaker than other material. Being weaker is not a bad trait but if its cast to conservative it can be thin and to weak. Housing is not designed to prevent the intermediate shaft from moving.

Hypotheses
That the m190 part time disconnect housing makes the diff stronger. There are bigger bearings and higher tolerances. The actuator assembly helps prevent shock loads from from entering the the differential. The extra material helps with housing strength. This might be an upgrade part if you machine a spacer/disconnect eliminator(100% logical but impossible to prove).

Fix!
Would need an upgraded shaft, to improve the strength of the splines. New bearings with a tapper to transmit the shock load to the housing. Upgraded housing to mount bearings and add support. See crap paint picture below (I use paint because CAD gives me nightmares, like flashbacks to my worst job ever). Draw backs are cost, most likely going to need to be 2 piece to get the factory seal and bearings to work with upgraded tapper bearings. Custom cut shaft with machined races for bearings.
1692376541158.png


Moral is the factory piece is the way it is because it has worked forever. Spicer upgraded unit is doing the lets beef up everything but not reinvent the wheel. I could see buying into something that fixes 2 out of the 3 issues (shaft and housing) but just tackling one issue doesn't alleviate the problem.

Dana publishes the data on torque load limits etc.

Ford Bronco Snacktime's Broken Bronco Build 1701273870714
 

Aonarch

Outer Banks
Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 4, 2021
Threads
12
Messages
1,166
Reaction score
1,904
Location
North GA / MT
Vehicle(s)
‘23 Bronco OBX 2DR Lux 2.7, ‘24 V60 Polestar
Your Bronco Model
Outer Banks
Clubs
 
looks like a nominal dimension for the OEM CV solid axle shaft is 1.25”. Not sure what the material is but likely mild steel, maybe 75 ksi yield. The max torque before failure is probably around 1200 ft/lbs (T=YS J / r). even if it is 2x that (assuming high strength heat treated steel) it should fail in pure torsion before ring gear achieves max allowable. Maybe I am missing something?

Seems to me that failing the fdu internals without CV shaft failure is from excessive internal displacements. Lateral loading from high CV angles, poor lateral bearing support, intermediate shaft flexing. Very curious to see the inside of your M190. You have surely induced very many hours of high lateral loading.
Agreed, which is another example of why you need to stay within manufacturer approved angle ranges.
 

vrtical

Raptor
Well-Known Member
First Name
Doug
Joined
Jul 14, 2020
Threads
35
Messages
6,281
Reaction score
12,753
Location
GSMNP, TN
Vehicle(s)
Fords
Your Bronco Model
Raptor
Clubs
 
I am going with "poor lateral bearing support " given what I know.
 

87-Z28

Outer Banks
Well-Known Member
First Name
Andy
Joined
Sep 1, 2022
Threads
1
Messages
431
Reaction score
642
Location
Texas
Vehicle(s)
BMW
Your Bronco Model
Outer Banks
Clubs
 
Sure. Increasing angles always makes lateral loads worse. However I do think there is room for improvement in the fdu wrt minimizing displacements, even at OEM max allowable angles (18 degrees).
 

Fordified1

Black Diamond
Well-Known Member
First Name
Bob
Joined
Nov 1, 2023
Threads
13
Messages
1,196
Reaction score
2,826
Location
Mid South Texas
Vehicle(s)
‘15 Mustang ecoboost, 4wd Excursion, ‘69 Mach 1
Your Bronco Model
Black Diamond
Clubs
 
I am going with "poor lateral bearing support " given what I know.
Agreed and likely a cast iron case vs cast aluminum would have better support.
Also. Generally there is very little room inside a diff case for the bearing support at the small end of the pinion gear (if it even has that bearing and support).
 

Sponsored
OP
OP
Snacktime

Snacktime

Black Diamond
Well-Known Member
First Name
Nate
Joined
Jul 14, 2020
Threads
55
Messages
2,738
Reaction score
6,021
Location
Sac-a-tomatoes
Vehicle(s)
Bronco, F150
Your Bronco Model
Black Diamond
Clubs
 
I am pretty sure it is from the torsional force on the drivers side pinion gear that holds the CV axle. Slowly eating the gears inside away till catastrophic failure. With the amount of metal floating around inside the diff prior to failure can't be overlooked.

I think the m210 locker vs cast iron carrier is a huge improvement. The case & ring gear to me seems like a mute point. I think the spalling on where the CV axles contact the carrier is going to become a sign of hard use.
 

Fordified1

Black Diamond
Well-Known Member
First Name
Bob
Joined
Nov 1, 2023
Threads
13
Messages
1,196
Reaction score
2,826
Location
Mid South Texas
Vehicle(s)
‘15 Mustang ecoboost, 4wd Excursion, ‘69 Mach 1
Your Bronco Model
Black Diamond
Clubs
 
I am pretty sure it is from the torsional force on the drivers side pinion gear that holds the CV axle. .
I believe you meant spider gear.
 

Valhalla

Badlands
Well-Known Member
First Name
Valhalla
Joined
Jan 29, 2017
Threads
35
Messages
881
Reaction score
1,618
Location
Cleveland Tn
Vehicle(s)
2023 Bronco,1996 Bronco, F350, JKU, MKZ, Silverado
Your Bronco Model
Badlands
Clubs
 
Bronco got left behind today! Went to Truckee and got a tree 2" taller than my house.
Ford Bronco Snacktime's Broken Bronco Build PXL_20231202_224946950
Don't forget to dress up as krampus!!
Ford Bronco Snacktime's Broken Bronco Build Krampus.PNG
Sponsored

 
 




Top