A New Kind of Portal

[tmason10]

Just a note that we actually do read the comments, not just block the ones we don't like. There's always things to learn, even between the mean comments. We're just not trying to get into a pissing match responding to insults one way or another.

We do our best, research, and test these parts on our own vehicles constantly. The reason we have return customers isn't a fluke, they like the product and the way we are in the community. No matter what path we go we haven't, and won't leave customers high and dry.

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[HeHateMe]

He puts on this super patriot red mantra in all of his videos and public presentation but as soon as he stands to profit he flops at the first opportunity to support communist country's manufacturing. The ultimate grifter and conman.

You are literally describing Do... Eh, nevermind.

 

[DYak]

Just a note that we actually do read the comments, not just block the ones we don't like. There's always things to learn, even between the mean comments. We're just not trying to get into a pissing match responding to insults one way or another.

We do our best, research, and test these parts on our own vehicles constantly. The reason we have return customers isn't a fluke, they like the product and the way we are in the community. No matter what path we go we haven't, and won't leave customers high and dry.

Say I buy one of your first import portal sets, it gets installed and I'm super happy. You sell out of the first 10 and everyone is pumped so you put an order in for 20 more. Five months in, I give you a call saying a gearbox seized up on the highway. Let's say hypothetically iron doesn't shed heat as well as aluminum and you didn't do anything to the design to account for that. I'm livid and threatening to sue. You're 30 sets deep on these things and there might be a serious problem. What do you do?

 

[GreyZ]

You are literally describing Do... Eh, nevermind.

The similarities are shocking and I mean that in the worst aspect possible.

 

[SierraBronco]

Just a note that we actually do read the comments, not just block the ones we don't like. There's always things to learn, even between the mean comments. We're just not trying to get into a pissing match responding to insults one way or another.

We do our best, research, and test these parts on our own vehicles constantly. The reason we have return customers isn't a fluke, they like the product and the way we are in the community. No matter what path we go we haven't, and won't leave customers high and dry.

You’ll soon be responding to engineering and technical questions (without deflecting to talk about some made up nonsense) then?

 

[5GENIDN]

Correct, and now even more specialized in the high performance window industry after a couple of stints in acedamia (Marquette University and TU Berlin) interspersed with industry (Cleaver Brooks and Siemens Power/KWU).

So you are the guy I should be asking.... LITE ZONE windows out of Canada.... I am slowly compiling information about building my own house (like over the last 25 years).... What do you think of there design? I am torn... I like it but???? very different. I am curious about how the polymer sheathing will hold up over time... I do not mine the thickness because I want to build with insulated rammed earth... so I am looking at 24 to 30 inch thick walls to begin with....

Sorry... I do not know anyone that has your knowledge base... I had to ask. I just got excited when I read that....

 

[5GENIDN]

Just a note that we actually do read the comments, not just block the ones we don't like. There's always things to learn, even between the mean comments. We're just not trying to get into a pissing match responding to insults one way or another.

We do our best, research, and test these parts on our own vehicles constantly. The reason we have return customers isn't a fluke, they like the product and the way we are in the community. No matter what path we go we haven't, and won't leave customers high and dry.

That is fair Tyler... Please lets start over.

I have questions about your design choices. Please help me to understand.

I truly feel that an attempt to make portals a less expensive option is admirable. Going to a cast steel may well be the answer. I do have some concerns there about expansion and contraction and how that may effect bearing raceways especially if you are using a bearing designed to account for lateral loading. Have you done any thermal analysis? At he very least I would like to see miles and miles of highway driving at speed to show that the raceways are going to hold up. This needs to be done with temp stickers at a minimum or better yet with temp probes.

WHY WHY are you insisting on Helical gears??? They do not make sense in this application. I do not understand the choice. I would really really like to hear your justification.... It has to be more than the noise.... There has to be some other reason, there are just too many reasons not to use Helical. Too many cons.... I may disagree with your answer... that is fine but at least justify this choice beyond noise.... I can give you first hand anecdotal evidence that there is no noise with straight cut gear, at least that you can hear at any speed the Bronco is capable of.....

Why the 1.22 gear reduction? I know why 74 chose it... Makes sense but it is not necessarily the best for everyone... I am sure there are people that would like to go with a deeper reduction and we also have seen examples of people using a lower reduction.... ie Exodus.....

My observation is that Tibus has been copying what others are doing.... so far as going helical because Mercedes did... My opinion is that Mercedes did that for marketing.... but they sure have not released that information to me..... He was at a 1.30 reduction before 74 weld showed up and he was cast iron... Now his product comes to these shores and he is 7075 and 1.22.... seems like ( I may be wrong) seems like he is adjusting based on other's moves.

If you are going to design a new portal.... Make it yours.... Make a NEW portal. Justify your choices.... What do you want out of it? what do you want it to accomplish? actually redesign it to fit the needs of your customer base......

I think cast steel will work but it will need prototyping and testing.... DO NOT rush it to market before it is ready.... This is not construction..... It is a very different industry.... Please, no ill will meant by that comment, just fact. Having worked with many in both fields... they definitely take very different approaches to things and both are justified in doing so....

 

[HPNQ420]

So you are the guy I should be asking....

No worries. We are getting outside the scope of the forum so I am sending a DM.

 

[Dialtone]

CBP Trade protects the intellectual property rights of American businesses, safeguarding them from unfair competition, and use for malicious intent while upholding American innovation and ingenuity. CBP targets and seizes imports of counterfeit and pirated goods, and enforces exclusion orders on patent-infringing and other IPR violative goods.
Intellectual Property Rights | U.S. Customs and Border Protection

www.cbp.gov/trade/priority-issues/ipr

https://www.cbp.gov/trade/priority-issues/ipr#:~:text=CBP Trade protects the intellectual property rights of,orders on patent-infringing and other IPR violative goods.

Probably works as well as the protection at our southern border.

 

[Dialtone]

many folks are just not very knowledgeable and easily influenced. Anyone with some basic knowledge will question things and easily see thru him. The tie rod brace is the perfect example.

All very true but I think the real break down is the inability or desire to do the research. People take the top hit on on a Garggle search and run with it. I've watched that mentality ruin the IT world over the last 3 decades. People can't be bothered and don't research and troubleshoot. They grab the easy solution and then blame others when shit fails. It's sad.

 

[87-Z28]

The bolt on portals are a bad idea. There is not a way to "fix" the idea, it just fundamentally is not structurally sound based on the width and structural loads the OEM cast upright was designed for.

The gearing has been discussed quite a bit but the increased loading gets somewhat overlooked. No way I just add bolt on portals without addressing the loads.

 

[mcinfantry]

As a disabled American veteran, how is taking the intellectual property of another overseas designer and having a separate overseas manufacturer helping me

I seem to remember something about America, and looking out for veterans and USA something something something

I have my hearing aids charging so I apologize if you answered and I was unable to hear it

answer again. Please

 

[87-Z28]

We do our best, research, and test these parts on our own vehicles constantly.

that is not how engineering research and development should be conducted. That is merely inserting a product prematurely into a complex system and hoping for the best with random testing that doesn’t even adequately quantify testing and/or design variables. What variables are controlled during your tests? What metrics are analyzed as outcomes? What data is quantified? Did my wheel fall off or not is woefully inadequate.

No iterative and quantifiable ENGINEERING, DEVELOPMENT, and TESTING cycles for product improvement. All seems like a premature hope and a dream.

 

[5GENIDN]

The gearing has been discussed quite a bit but the increased loading gets somewhat overlooked. No way I just add bolt on portals without addressing the loads.

bear with me... I was hoping to get to that..... but I need to get through the rest of this first... There is a possibility .... If Tyler takes a redesign serious... I am sure the manufacturer has engineers on staff or can source them reasonably. He could end up with a pretty good product at a lower cost.... BUT.... It needs to be redesigned. It needs to be tested. It needs to be proven... Early failures (not prototype but sales) will absolutely kill it.... A cast portal.... ( I agree it needs a knuckle especially with the weight of cast steel) It could lower the cost of entry and be a viable product. I think Tyler is going to have to rely on some engineers though. And the Chinese will want to do it because they will want to steal it from him. But for a while he will get his shot and there might be a lower cost of entry.

 

[DYak]

bear with me... I was hoping to get to that..... but I need to get through the rest of this first... There is a possibility .... If Tyler takes a redesign serious... I am sure the manufacturer has engineers on staff or can source them reasonably. He could end up with a pretty good product at a lower cost.... BUT.... It needs to be redesigned. It needs to be tested. It needs to be proven... Early failures (not prototype but sales) will absolutely kill it.... A cast portal.... ( I agree it needs a knuckle especially with the weight of cast steel) It could lower the cost of entry and be a viable product. I think Tyler is going to have to rely on some engineers though. And the Chinese will want to do it because they will want to steal it from him. But for a while he will get his shot and there might be a lower cost of entry.

Import cast units going on sale to the public today with a June delivery according to IG.

There's a reason people don't think portals do well at high speeds. Cast iron housing have caused overheating issues in Mercedes (and other) designs.

We can look at a bolt-on application that has a steel housing, Werewolf. If you ask around you can find out how they do at speed. Something I find interesting is there was a pretty small oil sump on their straight cut gear set, but when they switched to helical they increased the sump volume astronomically. They also went to a tapered roller bearing on the idler gear. I wonder why this is.. According to Tyler his changes are housing material, adding material "where it needed some" (presumably where he broke his 7075 stuff since he was asking how to weld it on FB) and vent location. The internals are supposed to be the same and you're not supposed to be able to tell from the outside that it's different. This leads me to believe there are no meaningful changes to address heat, which has killed bolt on products in the past.

For the sake of argument I will assume Tyler is aware of all of this and made adjustments. It's still crazy to release a first article to the public. He said his fallout with Tibus happened gradually over the last six months, and he said Tibus was unwilling to change the product. What else am I supposed to conclude here other than his development timeframe has been less than that. If you've ever worked on castings before, you know that's aggressive.

He talks so much BS about 74Weld so let's look at them as a development case study. Did Quinn start in a similar position to Tyler, trying to make improvements on an existing design? Yes. The glaring difference is he spent a decade working on these things and crated a product that could live in the most extreme conditions before he started selling stuff for people to drive on the street. In one of their videos they talk about getting 10k miles on a design, finding some issues, throwing that design away and starting at zero to get another 10k miles on the next revision before moving on to a BETA run of close industry friends as testers.

I also was able to talk to Quinn at KOH this year and when someone brought up price point, cast iron was not even on their list. He said they investigated castings over the past two years but are currently pursuing forgings because they found they could stick with aluminum for heat and weight, but be able to get a stronger product similar in cost to a casting. The tooling will just cost much more.

No matter what they end up going with, two years of investigating different manufacturing methods is something like four times as long as Tyler has even been working on portals. And let's be clear, working on here means installing not designing.

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