- Thread starter
- #16
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People have bent them winching and or lifted by the tow points. Someone might have pictures.
This is what I did...
Hopefully you get the idea from the pictures.
P.S. This was my first project after buying my welder. I'm not a welder but getting better...
- Thread starter
- #18
That looks like a great move. I'm going to find that hole you used on the frame rail right now.
- Thread starter
- #19
So you picked up this hole on the rail and you windowed your bracket to go over that hump. I feel it on the inside too. It looks like you made inners and outers for both sides.
I really like this approach because it does ZERO heat to the frame rail.
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Ford even makes these for their own winch kit.
Here are a few other options you can use for inspiration.
https://www.bronco6g.com/forum/threads/frame-horn-reinforcement-aftermarket-options-–-master-list-guide.116609/
Yes, inner and outer frame walls and my backing plate, all 1/4" steel.
I also used one bolt on each side so I didn't squeeze the frame. I used the stock tow points but installed them after getting the bumper lined up and all bolts tightened down. This way the front of the frame was open to tighten each bolt. I then loosened the three main bolts through the horns and installed the tow points one side at a time.
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- Thread starter
- #23
That's an eerie similarity. I'm guessing multiple home fabbers have gravitated toward a similar design.
So you used the open end of the frame rail to access inside with nuts, and your brackets replaced the backing nut plate.
I checked the hole size against a 12mm bolt I have left over from deleting the crash bars. Those are nice 10.9 bolts and they'd make the length ... just. I've got all 8.
The inner hole clears it just fine. The outer, not so much.
One option for through-bolting without crush is to wallow the outer hole to where the 12mm bolt passes fully through, but then cut a section of tube that supports it on the inside. I can still get in there if I remove the tow point. I've got a gantry crane I can strap on to the light bar so that I don't have to support the thing with my head while I'm under there.
Then all I have to do is dental work to fit the parts and then laparoscopic surgery to replace the nut plates one side at a time. Easy peasy.
Ironically, I saved these bolts because I had started with the concept that I would bracket to the crash bar mounting points, but I opted out. Too much dental work.
So you used the open end of the frame rail to access inside with nuts, and your brackets replaced the backing nut plate.
I checked the hole size against a 12mm bolt I have left over from deleting the crash bars. Those are nice 10.9 bolts and they'd make the length ... just. I've got all 8.
The inner hole clears it just fine. The outer, not so much.
One option for through-bolting without crush is to wallow the outer hole to where the 12mm bolt passes fully through, but then cut a section of tube that supports it on the inside. I can still get in there if I remove the tow point. I've got a gantry crane I can strap on to the light bar so that I don't have to support the thing with my head while I'm under there.
Then all I have to do is dental work to fit the parts and then laparoscopic surgery to replace the nut plates one side at a time. Easy peasy.
Ironically, I saved these bolts because I had started with the concept that I would bracket to the crash bar mounting points, but I opted out. Too much dental work.
Yes, plus a 1/4" backing plate replacing stock backing plate.
I wanted it tucked as close to the grill as possible.
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Great suggestion Snacktime. looks like he is going that route. It’s amazing how many we seen bend or ripped off the last few years.
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- Thread starter
- #26
So I've had some time to tinker with this frame horn reinforcement issue over the weekend, and I should have it all sewn up again by mid week.
I really appreciate the suggestion!
*NOW* I see all the references to the reinforcement options. I'm still curious to see any pics of damage, but I don't have to be convinced that it's possible.
I started by pulling the tow point off and looking up the frame rail.
I'm pretty sure the stamped/embossed folds in the frame rails are crumple zones. Unfortunately there *IS* one that protrudes inward just inside of the weld to the flange surface. I'll have to work around that as I insert a support sleeve that the through-bolt goes into. No big deal. I'm basically defeating the crumple tech by reinforcing here anyhow. If I crash into anything hard enough that the frame would have crumpled, I"m sure I'll get a nice deceleration out of the winch passing through the radiator!
After laying on the creeper and staring at this from underneath for a while, I decided I can get this done with the bumper still on. I just have to do it in stages. First I cut out the pieces and fit them together on one side, then I copy the parts for doing the mirror image job on the other side. The bumper stays attached on at least one side the whole time.
Laparoscopic fabrication. Easy peasy.
So yesterday I got to work shaping and fitting and shaping and fitting and shaping and fitting... figuring things out is always the slowest part. The pace picks up later.
Here's how I get my drilled holes in metal parts to line up with existing bolt holes on the vehicle.
I tend to use this technique of making 2 parts at a time by tack welding them together and copying the shape and the hole pattern. Flip the second for a right/left mirror image copy.
Here's some secret sauce...
When I got this HF band saw, I did *NOT* know that I would use it as much as I do. I needed to cut some I-beams to build my garage loft, but it is by far my most accurately square cutting tool. Now, I use it a LOT. It's changed my technique.
Here, I'm cutting a 5" section of 6x6" .250 wall square tube. I'm using it to have pre-established 90 degree bends in my part, rather than cut 1/4" plate and then bend it in my press. Another option would be .250 wall angle iron but the largest piece I have is only 4x4", and I would need it to be at least 5-by to cut the part that I want. Besides... I like the rounded corner of the tube better than the hard edge in extruded angle iron.
With the section of tube, I can cut out parts like this:
You can see another grinding effect here. I've hogged out the metal in the shape of the crumples, first by using the drill press to make a series of half inch holes, and then with a die grinder to expand it to the full shape. I'm trying to preserve as much metal as I can between the bolt hole and the oval opening.
And then, having made a pair of right/left, I tack weld them back to back with blanks, copy the holes and 2 becomes 4.
After a day of crawling in and out from under the Bronco, having test-fit my parts an uncountable number of times, I've got a plan for bolting the parts in, tack welding them together on the frame (so the holes line up perfectly), and then extracting the tack welded assemblies for final welds.
Set up is everything:
Here, I've already figured out where my light has to be, where my cables have to be, where my HANDS go, so that I can see, and I've got a plan for how to get into position without knocking everything over. The wind is zero. My battery negative lead has been disconnected and shoved into an old welding glove.
Here's the view I can get from my working position:
Done!
I got the complete brackets welded for passenger's side, but came in for dinner without pics. Tomorrow after work they'll go on unpainted, and the driver's side will get fitted/tacked/welded. The driver's side will get a coat of spray paint and wait a day before assembly. Then the passenger's side will get painted before re-assembly.
I really appreciate the suggestion!
*NOW* I see all the references to the reinforcement options. I'm still curious to see any pics of damage, but I don't have to be convinced that it's possible.
I started by pulling the tow point off and looking up the frame rail.
I'm pretty sure the stamped/embossed folds in the frame rails are crumple zones. Unfortunately there *IS* one that protrudes inward just inside of the weld to the flange surface. I'll have to work around that as I insert a support sleeve that the through-bolt goes into. No big deal. I'm basically defeating the crumple tech by reinforcing here anyhow. If I crash into anything hard enough that the frame would have crumpled, I"m sure I'll get a nice deceleration out of the winch passing through the radiator!
After laying on the creeper and staring at this from underneath for a while, I decided I can get this done with the bumper still on. I just have to do it in stages. First I cut out the pieces and fit them together on one side, then I copy the parts for doing the mirror image job on the other side. The bumper stays attached on at least one side the whole time.
Laparoscopic fabrication. Easy peasy.
So yesterday I got to work shaping and fitting and shaping and fitting and shaping and fitting... figuring things out is always the slowest part. The pace picks up later.
Here's how I get my drilled holes in metal parts to line up with existing bolt holes on the vehicle.
I tend to use this technique of making 2 parts at a time by tack welding them together and copying the shape and the hole pattern. Flip the second for a right/left mirror image copy.
Here's some secret sauce...
When I got this HF band saw, I did *NOT* know that I would use it as much as I do. I needed to cut some I-beams to build my garage loft, but it is by far my most accurately square cutting tool. Now, I use it a LOT. It's changed my technique.
Here, I'm cutting a 5" section of 6x6" .250 wall square tube. I'm using it to have pre-established 90 degree bends in my part, rather than cut 1/4" plate and then bend it in my press. Another option would be .250 wall angle iron but the largest piece I have is only 4x4", and I would need it to be at least 5-by to cut the part that I want. Besides... I like the rounded corner of the tube better than the hard edge in extruded angle iron.
With the section of tube, I can cut out parts like this:
You can see another grinding effect here. I've hogged out the metal in the shape of the crumples, first by using the drill press to make a series of half inch holes, and then with a die grinder to expand it to the full shape. I'm trying to preserve as much metal as I can between the bolt hole and the oval opening.
And then, having made a pair of right/left, I tack weld them back to back with blanks, copy the holes and 2 becomes 4.
After a day of crawling in and out from under the Bronco, having test-fit my parts an uncountable number of times, I've got a plan for bolting the parts in, tack welding them together on the frame (so the holes line up perfectly), and then extracting the tack welded assemblies for final welds.
Set up is everything:
Here, I've already figured out where my light has to be, where my cables have to be, where my HANDS go, so that I can see, and I've got a plan for how to get into position without knocking everything over. The wind is zero. My battery negative lead has been disconnected and shoved into an old welding glove.
Here's the view I can get from my working position:
Done!
I got the complete brackets welded for passenger's side, but came in for dinner without pics. Tomorrow after work they'll go on unpainted, and the driver's side will get fitted/tacked/welded. The driver's side will get a coat of spray paint and wait a day before assembly. Then the passenger's side will get painted before re-assembly.
Looking good! I need a die grinder in my life.So I've had some time to tinker with this frame horn reinforcement issue over the weekend, and I should have it all sewn up again by mid week.
I really appreciate the suggestion!
*NOW* I see all the references to the reinforcement options. I'm still curious to see any pics of damage, but I don't have to be convinced that it's possible.
I started by pulling the tow point off and looking up the frame rail.
I'm pretty sure the stamped/embossed folds in the frame rails are crumple zones. Unfortunately there *IS* one that protrudes inward just inside of the weld to the flange surface. I'll have to work around that as I insert a support sleeve that the through-bolt goes into. No big deal. I'm basically defeating the crumple tech by reinforcing here anyhow. If I crash into anything hard enough that the frame would have crumpled, I"m sure I'll get a nice deceleration out of the winch passing through the radiator!
After laying on the creeper and staring at this from underneath for a while, I decided I can get this done with the bumper still on. I just have to do it in stages. First I cut out the pieces and fit them together on one side, then I copy the parts for doing the mirror image job on the other side. The bumper stays attached on at least one side the whole time.
Laparoscopic fabrication. Easy peasy.
So yesterday I got to work shaping and fitting and shaping and fitting and shaping and fitting... figuring things out is always the slowest part. The pace picks up later.
Here's how I get my drilled holes in metal parts to line up with existing bolt holes on the vehicle.
I tend to use this technique of making 2 parts at a time by tack welding them together and copying the shape and the hole pattern. Flip the second for a right/left mirror image copy.
Here's some secret sauce...
When I got this HF band saw, I did *NOT* know that I would use it as much as I do. I needed to cut some I-beams to build my garage loft, but it is by far my most accurately square cutting tool. Now, I use it a LOT. It's changed my technique.
Here, I'm cutting a 5" section of 6x6" .250 wall square tube. I'm using it to have pre-established 90 degree bends in my part, rather than cut 1/4" plate and then bend it in my press. Another option would be .250 wall angle iron but the largest piece I have is only 4x4", and I would need it to be at least 5-by to cut the part that I want. Besides... I like the rounded corner of the tube better than the hard edge in extruded angle iron.
With the section of tube, I can cut out parts like this:
You can see another grinding effect here. I've hogged out the metal in the shape of the crumples, first by using the drill press to make a series of half inch holes, and then with a die grinder to expand it to the full shape. I'm trying to preserve as much metal as I can between the bolt hole and the oval opening.
And then, having made a pair of right/left, I tack weld them back to back with blanks, copy the holes and 2 becomes 4.
After a day of crawling in and out from under the Bronco, having test-fit my parts an uncountable number of times, I've got a plan for bolting the parts in, tack welding them together on the frame (so the holes line up perfectly), and then extracting the tack welded assemblies for final welds.
Set up is everything:
Here, I've already figured out where my light has to be, where my cables have to be, where my HANDS go, so that I can see, and I've got a plan for how to get into position without knocking everything over. The wind is zero. My battery negative lead has been disconnected and shoved into an old welding glove.
Here's the view I can get from my working position:
Done!
I got the complete brackets welded for passenger's side, but came in for dinner without pics. Tomorrow after work they'll go on unpainted, and the driver's side will get fitted/tacked/welded. The driver's side will get a coat of spray paint and wait a day before assembly. Then the passenger's side will get painted before re-assembly.
Looking back at mine, it's like a 5 year old made them,
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- Thread starter
- #28
So....
Good news and bad news.
Scratch that. Bad attitude. News is just news. We can choose to like it or not, or just forego any opinion entirely and I choose the latter.
Because otherwise I'm going to have to kick something.
The news that would be good... if I were an opinion-having type of person... is here:
These are the passenger's side brackets and they fit perfectly. They're welded two-side with the outer weld ground smooth so that it doesn't interfere with fit up. They're paint ready.
The other side isn't going to be done soon, though. I'm scrapping the parts and starting over.
Here's why.
Compare these pics, first passenger side, then driver side frame rails just behind the frame horns.
Note that in the first pic, the vehicle points to our right and in the second pic, the vehicle points left. Look at the position of the bolt hole relative to the smaller lozenge shaped dimple that sits forward from the bolt hole (right in the first pic, left in the second). On the passenger's side, the position of the hole is HIGHER along the dimple than on driver's side, by almost an entire diameter!!!
Unfortunately I didn't notice this until I'd mirror copied the parts from the other side. I didn't even notice until after I got in there and tack welded the inner bracket.
I still didn't notice till after I decided to complete the welds - which I now wish I hadn't - I could have re-used parts. I just figured error was adding up and my line up on the outside of the weld wasn't as good. That was true, but it was because the parts were interfering with the dimple when I forced the hole to line up.
It wasn't until after I tried to line up the outer bracket parts and I could see straight-on into the hole to notice that it didn't want to align both to the dimple and to the hole at the same time.
Now I could just go with the slightly misfit inner bracket that I've already welded up, and slot out the hole in the outer bracket to force that piece to be useful also...
... but that's not the right answer.
The right answer is to scrap the parts and do as nice a job on the driver's side as I did on the passenger's side.
I can re-use at least one of my templates and just move the hole. It'll add a day, maybe two, maybe more. It's a busy week ahead and I can only really work on this at night.
This is a very normal type of screw up. It's disheartening, but tolerable. A year from now, I'll just know that there are no-excuses good parts under there.
It's not as bad as what I had to do to my skid plates... but that's for another thread.
Good news and bad news.
Scratch that. Bad attitude. News is just news. We can choose to like it or not, or just forego any opinion entirely and I choose the latter.
Because otherwise I'm going to have to kick something.
The news that would be good... if I were an opinion-having type of person... is here:
These are the passenger's side brackets and they fit perfectly. They're welded two-side with the outer weld ground smooth so that it doesn't interfere with fit up. They're paint ready.
The other side isn't going to be done soon, though. I'm scrapping the parts and starting over.
Here's why.
Compare these pics, first passenger side, then driver side frame rails just behind the frame horns.
Note that in the first pic, the vehicle points to our right and in the second pic, the vehicle points left. Look at the position of the bolt hole relative to the smaller lozenge shaped dimple that sits forward from the bolt hole (right in the first pic, left in the second). On the passenger's side, the position of the hole is HIGHER along the dimple than on driver's side, by almost an entire diameter!!!
Unfortunately I didn't notice this until I'd mirror copied the parts from the other side. I didn't even notice until after I got in there and tack welded the inner bracket.
I still didn't notice till after I decided to complete the welds - which I now wish I hadn't - I could have re-used parts. I just figured error was adding up and my line up on the outside of the weld wasn't as good. That was true, but it was because the parts were interfering with the dimple when I forced the hole to line up.
It wasn't until after I tried to line up the outer bracket parts and I could see straight-on into the hole to notice that it didn't want to align both to the dimple and to the hole at the same time.
Now I could just go with the slightly misfit inner bracket that I've already welded up, and slot out the hole in the outer bracket to force that piece to be useful also...
... but that's not the right answer.
The right answer is to scrap the parts and do as nice a job on the driver's side as I did on the passenger's side.
I can re-use at least one of my templates and just move the hole. It'll add a day, maybe two, maybe more. It's a busy week ahead and I can only really work on this at night.
This is a very normal type of screw up. It's disheartening, but tolerable. A year from now, I'll just know that there are no-excuses good parts under there.
It's not as bad as what I had to do to my skid plates... but that's for another thread.
- Thread starter
- #29
Epic.
Driver's side is done. I scrapped the old parts which had been mirror image copies of the pieces I cut for the passenger's side... without knowing that the frame holes are in a different position.
I modified my template, tracing the new hole position.
Here's the template. The old hole location is visible as a circular indentation in the masking tape. The new hole is traced with pencil. They don't even overlap. *facepalm*
I roughed out the new pieces last night after dinner.
Today, I got home and finished shaping them out. I just finalized the welds and they're cooling before I grind flat on the outer surfaces and then spray paint.
I'll re-assemble tomorrow afternoon.
Scrapping parts added 1 day.
Driver's side is done. I scrapped the old parts which had been mirror image copies of the pieces I cut for the passenger's side... without knowing that the frame holes are in a different position.
I modified my template, tracing the new hole position.
Here's the template. The old hole location is visible as a circular indentation in the masking tape. The new hole is traced with pencil. They don't even overlap. *facepalm*
I roughed out the new pieces last night after dinner.
Today, I got home and finished shaping them out. I just finalized the welds and they're cooling before I grind flat on the outer surfaces and then spray paint.
I'll re-assemble tomorrow afternoon.
Scrapping parts added 1 day.
