I Could Not Wait

[HTX1811]

I mean the biggest baddest new Bronco to be made whatever you call it.

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[HTX1811]

is that a duplex or do you have two separate garages? What do you do and how can I replace you there?

It’s a stand alone 4 story house. Big foot print on a small lot. Gated community. I’m retiring in 18 months and going to work in the private sector to make stupid money. Well that’s the plan anyway. Grown kid who is a Lt in the Air Force and a wife that makes good money are major factors in my ability to buy toys.

 

[BroncoBoy22]

It’s a stand alone 4 story house. Big foot print on a small lot. Gated community. I’m retiring in 18 months and going to work in the private sector to make stupid money. Well that’s the plan anyway. Grown kid who is a Lt in the Air Force and a wife that makes good money are major factors in my ability to buy toys.

private sector is huge right now for folks with the clearance and background/experience

 

[HTX1811]

private sector is huge right now for folks with the clearance and background/experience

You speak the truth BroncoBoy22. Absolutely. I may or may not be one of those "folks".

 

[JimmyDean]

It’s a stand alone 4 story house. Big foot print on a small lot. Gated community. I’m retiring in 18 months and going to work in the private sector to make stupid money. Well that’s the plan anyway. Grown kid who is a Lt in the Air Force and a wife that makes good money are major factors in my ability to buy toys.

Ah, well I wrapped up my military career 15 years ago. Been an engineer for the last 10 years, and about 20 years and 2.5 months from retirement right now.

If I'd stayed in the USAF I would be able to retire in less than a year....

 

[HTX1811]

I’m currently not military but do work for the government and I’m here to help.

I’ve told my son he should do his 20 then go private sector. His gov’t clock started ticking at 21 so at 41 he will still be very marketable.

 

[JimmyDean]

An all wheel drive muscle car is just wrong. Manufacturers just need to start fitting the cars with tires commensurate with the amount of horsepower they are making these days, and work on improving the weight distribution so they aren't so nose heavy. Some of the fastest cars you can buy today are rear wheel drive, and the Demon, which is credited with the fastest quarter mile time of any production car was a rear wheel drive muscle car.

In fact, I have a buddy who used to drag race an Evo that was converted to rear wheel drive.

They're pushing the limit of streetable tire size. Mustangs that are coming with 305+ rear tires, Demon even wider. those help put the power to the ground, and help in the turns as well, but it kills their road manners as well. any wider any you'll start having even more serious issues with tram-lining, and burning out things like power steering pumps with wider fronts. Also, there's the expense of tires like that.

I do think that AWD will become more standard on the muscle cars

 

[OX1]

An all wheel drive muscle car is just wrong. Manufacturers just need to start fitting the cars with tires commensurate with the amount of horsepower they are making these days, and work on improving the weight distribution so they aren't so nose heavy. Some of the fastest cars you can buy today are rear wheel drive, and the Demon, which is credited with the fastest quarter mile time of any production car was a rear wheel drive muscle car.

In fact, I have a buddy who used to drag race an Evo that was converted to rear wheel drive.

Thats fine at the track. On the street nothing truly hooks.

 

[OX1]

Pretty much all high performance rear wheel drive cars have staggered tire sizes, so putting wider rear tires doesn't really affect the the steering or propensity to tramline. The corvette Z06 has 335 section width rears, while last I saw, Dodge was putting much less aggressive 275s on the standard issue Hellcat. As for burning out power steering pumps, obviously a factory car will be designed to run just fine with the tires it is equipped with. I run 140Lb/tire 325s with a welded front end in one of my rigs and the factory power steering system turns them just fine.

Buddy just picked up an 09 Z06, tuned to 468 @ the wheels. Lights up a 325 (stock size) all day long, if he wants.

 

[TeocaliMG]

Basically all new cars, sport/muscle cars included are using EPAS now, so you don't have to worry about those pumps

 

[OX1]

Basically all new cars, sport/muscle cars included are using EPAS now, so you don't have to worry about those pumps

How are those with it all bound up in the rocks, with lockers, and 40's or better doing.
Strong enough, hydrosteer not needed?

 

[TeocaliMG]

What are those with it all bound up in the rocks, with lockers, and 40's or better doing.
Strong enough hydrosteer not needed?

First of all most vehicles you see in the rocks are either older (hydraulic rack) or a RCB set up for SFA rigs which has not yet been fully electrified. The JL and 2020 Super duty are the first applications which use some level of electrical assist/overlay on a standard RCB set up. In the case of the JL Wrangler I have already seen people gutting the modern RCB system in favor of hydraulic ram assist (no mechanical connection) I cant for the life of me figure out why anyone would want the steering precision and feedback of a tractor... but I know it does make things easier to lift when you don't have those pesky drag links or input shafts... People hear electric and just REEE REEE DELETE!

We have incredibly stringent testing for the EPAS systems we use. It is basically impossible for one to leave you stranded on electrical failure because there is at least 1 if not 2 fully redundant systems in the power pack. Its a safety critical component of the vehicle, that title that gives any system quality a kick in the butt that "offroad robustness" simply never gets. Its VERY important. As for wheel size, not only are the racks expected to work under the most ridiculous rack loads in dynamic situations at max GVWR and/or increased wheel/tire size, they are expected to work with no steering degradation. In my opinion this is an absurd standard that we uphold that bakes in unnecessary cost because who in their right mind would find themselves in such situations and expect 100% steering performance... The best example right now of a modern EPAS rack on an off-road rig is the Raptor, 1st gen included.

 

[JimmyDean]

What are those with it all bound up in the rocks, with lockers, and 40's or better doing.
Strong enough hydrosteer not needed?

I use a Saginaw on my Bronco. My F-250 just eats pumps, I've gone from using the upgraded red-head pump back to stock because I'm going to destroy it anyways within a couple of years.

 

[TeocaliMG]

First let me point out that hydraulic assist still maintains a mechanical connection to the wheels. You are simply running a single ended ram in parallel with the standard box and linkages so that you can exert force well in excess of what the box alone can to turn the wheels. This places a much large volume demand on the system that factory pumps simply can't meet. That is the reason you see JL getting converted to more traditional engine driven pumps. I don't know what the specs of the JL electric pumps are, but I imagine they do not put out the volume (gpm) and or pressure to efficiently run a hydraulic assist or full hudraulic steering system.

So why use hydraulic rams to steer? Simple, the factory steering boxes cannot put out enough force to turn the wheels in the rocks for many applications. Simply running more pressure with a stronger pump isn't the answer either because you start twisting off sector shafts or breaking the steering gears and housings. I don't necessarily have a problem with electric steering pumps, but there isn't a light duty automotive power steering system that has been produced yet that wouldn't benefit from a hydraulic assist system.

As to your point about steering feedback, it simply isn't very useful offroad and can be dangerous when hitting large objects at speed (broken/injured fingers and wrists). Driving offroad is not like road racing where you need to be able to feel when you are at or approaching the limit of adhesion.

This is not exactly what I am talking about, though the application you are talking about is likely more common. I am talking about people completely removing the gear and running pure hydraulic assist. This is fine, as you point out you don't "need" the feedback. More common on severe applications I suppose. I personally enjoy having steering feedback off-road, I like to have an idea of what mechanical stress my system is under and I can use my discretion when deciding to force my steer angle or relax it for the survival of the system.

My mistake here was assuming that the JL and Super Duty systems are even remotely similar. The JL does in fact use electrification on the pump end, not the gear end. This is not how EPAS works in any of our Ford applications. All of our racks are completely electrically powered and can offer way more assist, at higher speed and precision than our old hydraulic racks. As for the Super Duty, it has an electric overlay to the existing hydraulic system. It is pretty remarkable since you get additional assist over the hydraulic system (which is mechanically capable of plenty more than most will ever do). The primary purpose of the overlay however is to actually drive the hydraulic gear so the more robust RCB of the Super Duty can have all the driver assist features that the F-150 has with a full EPAS system.

edit: the majority of JL kits out there do keep the mechanical interface, you are correct. The job I was looking at was more unique.

As to the original question, Ford does EPAS differently (better), I wouldn't stress about it.

 

[OX1]

.. The best example right now of a modern EPAS rack on an off-road rig is the Raptor, 1st gen included.

So has anyone rock crawled one of these with real lockers and 40's or better that you've heard?

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