PSA: How Much Drivetrain Damage can happen from pushing the wrong Button ?

[JohnnyBronco]

Seems like pretty standard stuff to me. 4WD as compared to AWD usually doesn't allow slip between the front and rear drive shaft so even with unlocked diff on each if the rear doesn't exactly match the front there will be tension wound up in the drive train which will cause hopping both of which can cause damage. Stuff in turning will be noticed as well.

Lockers just prevent differential from allowing slip which compounds the issue.

The mystery for me is that at Off Rodeo they had us go into 4WD while on pavement, and even drive some distance and around turns, on pavement. I noted that there was no tightness in steering nor skipping nor binding in drive train. That led me to conclude, that at least with the advanced trac transfer case that it had the equivalent of a differential between the front and rear axles or some sort of limited slip there. My non advance trac clearly does get tight and skip if I have it in 4WD on dry pavement and try to turn as I accidently did it once.

It sort of bothers me that the advance trac in 4WD seemed to allow slip between front and rear. In 4A yes I would want that, but not 4WD since if the transfer case allows front/rear slip when in 4WD one slipping wheel could get you stuck. Lockers can help that tho.

Without locking diffs all you ever get in 4WD at most is power to 2 wheels, one front one rear. In 4A conceivably , in theory. you could have power only to one front wheel except that the transfer case does not allow for 100% transfer of power from back to front.

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[JohnnyBronco]

Also one area of concern that I have with powertrain binding is when using the sway bar disconnect (sta-bar disconnect) because it will only disconnect when in 4H or 4L. One huge advantage of the sway bar being disconnected is the more comfortable ride when going over uneven surfaces such as Moab's slick rock. FYI... slick rock is not slick! It provides traction similar to pavement. So why doesn't ford offer the ability to disconnect the sway bar when in 4A or even 2H? Even the Jeep Wrangler Rubicon will allow you to disconnect the sway bar in 4A. This is a huge oversight by Ford. There is a lot of binding of the powertrain that occurs when going over this type of surface in 4H or 4L but we are forced to if we want the sway bar disconnected. @Ford Motor Company, please fix this! I believe it could be fixed with a software update. There is no reason why we should not be able to use the sta-bar disconnect in 4A and even 2H.

Maybe because someone would want to disconnect the sway bar even by accident while traveling at 90 mph through the hills of WV on I79 or I70 west of Golden, CO. Or Colorado state roads 13 and 139. Or out of Steamboat Springs over Rabbit Ears Pass. You definitely do NOT want the sway bar disconnected on some of these 55-65 mph posted hairpins.

There is a time and place to disconnect

 

[Southern Girl]

I would like to label this discussion - "For people who know nothing about driving 4x4 vehicles"

Don't drive in 4H or 4L on the regular road. Duh guys.

 

[JohnnyBronco]

Because the ZF 8-speed is a brilliant transmission!


.....and, manual not an option on the turbo.....

And the 10 speed In my Bronco is even better. Where did you ever get downgraded to an 8?

 

[Beachin 74]

It's pretty easy to spot the old school off-roaders from the new-tech folks when I come off the beach at the dune crossing.
When I drive my 1974 and most other older rigs, you have to back up some to take the torque-bind off the drivetrain to shift out of 4wd. The new-tech folks will pull up close right behind you and wonder what you are doing.
The old school folks know to give you some room.

 

[JohnnyBronco]

I’ll be vulnerable here. I’m new to 4x4 vehicles and new to Off-Roading. I was recently on some trails and in 4H. I finished up and hopped on the County highway. I was 10 miles down the dry paved road going 65 before I realized I never pushed the button back. Took care of that and considered myself thankful I caught it quick.

I was shitting my pants hoping I didn’t screw anything thing up. All seems to be fine. I just don’t have that muscle memory yet and not having a physical lever certainly makes it less obvious. I’m a bit worried about my wife doing the same this winter or if my dog steps on it without me noticing.

Follow up question…I live in Minnesota and we obviously get a lot of snow. Let’s say we got a fresh 3-6inches and the roads are still suspect. Am I good driving in 4H and not going over 50-56 until they are plowed and starting clear up from sun/salt melt?

Experience says you're better in Slippery mode if there is a chance of ice underneath. But 4A will (from experience in Lake Erie Lake effect storms) outperform 4H in certain snowy conditions.

 

[JohnnyBronco]

I'm frustrated that you have no way to know which way to turn the dial for the various modes. It's easy to turn to one that initiates 4wd...

That's why the first turn of the dial does nothing but light up the mode you already are in, and also the delay in shifting, it is not instantaneous

 

[JohnnyBronco]

I would like to label this discussion - "For people who know nothing about driving 4x4 vehicles"

Don't drive in 4H or 4L on the regular road. Duh guys.

Ahh, you just took the fun out of downloading and printing 500 pages

 

[Headsong]

It's shown on the dash what you select I don't know how much easier it could be

After you turn the dial. Not before....maybe I need to look more closely....

 

[Bdisco]

Coming up on my one year anniversary with my Wildtrak.

This past winter we left the MIL‘s house just after dark. It started snowing a couple hours before we headed out. Our trip home took us over the rolling hills of Northeast Connecticut. The road conditions were about two inches of fresh fluffy to packed snow since it was a Sunday evening plows were late to get out. The Bronco didn’t miss a step. I was able to cautiously do the posted speed limit. I was only passed by one vehicle a newish Ford Explorer(maniac). I used Slippery GOAT (sounds like something you’d order at a bar) Mode for the entire trip. I wasn’t going to pull over to switch back to 2 wheel rear when the road conditions would change a mile up the road.

Should I have used a different mode? Is slippery for off-road (mud) use only?

I do use 4high in the Chevy when driving in the snow. It does limit your turning circle, but it already turns like an aircraft carrier without 4 wheel engaged.

 

[LockedBronco]

in fact it's impossible - can not use TTA w the Rear Locker engaged

these are the types of transmission drivetrain restrictions, features, & variations we're exploring in this thread
- many times one feature precludes another, or multiple - Bronco specific info

I am sure someone will find a way around that

 

[BroncoT]

The GOAT modes both make 4 wheeling easier and more complex. I consider myself extremely knowledgeable about powertrains, but not experienced. There are two lanes of learning. Technology and Scenarios. I recommend starting with learning what the technology actually does. Only then can you begin to apply this to the infinite scenarios experienced in the real world. Often times people skip to scenarios, get confused, frustrated and ultimately make mistakes. So I’m going to focus almost entirely on the technology here. 2, 3, and 4 will ignore the existence of GOAT and are in the order of how you should use them.

1. GOAT. You can use these modes and never touch the buttons. That’s how they’re designed. 95% of drivers will likely do better using this strategy as Ford controls more than just the differential and lockers.

2. Not using GOAT or tweaking it can be advantageous to those 5% who really know what they’re doing. Explaining every scenario is impossible and this is what confuses people. The only way to really learn is by doing It yourself (videos of guys driving are also good) and knowing the basics.

2a). Traction control. Limits wheel spin. This is adequate for 99% of on pavement driving for 99% of drivers, even in snow, rain, ice. The reality is, once spin is controlled, tires and anti-lock braking matter much, much more unless you‘re stuck or at high risk of getting stuck. 4WD does zero for the guy sliding off the expressway or through an intersection. Even recovery while in a sliding event is a maybe at best because once you’ve lost traction, there’s little diverted power can do. It can help getting moving, which I will cover.

2b). 4A or 4Auto. Essentially AWD. Diverts power to all four tires without fully locking anything. Tires do not need to slip because the differentials can. Great for slippery paved roads with no risk of binding. Not great for getting unstuck because this slipping means one fast spinning tire can waste all your torque. Also gets worse fuel economy than normal rear wheel drive that is powering only 2 wheels.

2c). 4WD. Makes sure your front and rear axles see the same torque. If you’re in deep snow this is where 4WD can help for on pavement driving. Not in keeping you from sliding off the road, but in slower speed cornering and the ability to climb hills. This is meant for off road and deep snow only, like when stuck.

2d). 4L and 4H. Again, both front and rear axles are getting torque because you’re in 4WD. You have two gears in the transfer case. For a given RPM, the transmission has 7 speeds in the manual, 10 in the auto to move at different speeds. The transfer case doubles these, much like the left hand shifter on a modern bike. In fact, if you want to feel what I’m talking about, borrow a bike with a left hand shifter and ride it. Low will cap the vehicle speed at a certain level for a given gear and RPM. So let’s say 2500 RPM in 7th on your auto (4L is capped here by Ford). In low you might go 30 MPH, while in high it could be 50 MPH. The only way to go faster in 4L is higher RPM. So why would anyone ever intentionally limit the # of gears available? People use 4L when going slow on ups and downs because it makes the throttle response easier to control. Pushing 50% of the way down = 20 MPH for instance versus 35 MPH in high so it’s easier to go a steady or predictable slow speed without having a perfect feel for the gas pedal. 4H in Baja applications is similarly good for modulating speed a higher MPH.

2e). Locking differentials. 4WD makes sure the front and rear axles get torque. But they can still slip from left to right if one wheel is stuck or hanging in the air. Locking the differential solves this by making it essentially solid. This will get you out of stuck positions too severe for even 4WD. It Is the essence of why the Bronco was built in my opinion, but maybe 2% of owners will ever truly need this capability.

3). Damage. Being in the wrong locked state for too long can break or prematurely wear things. There are two concerns drivers should have.

3a). Turning. Wheels don’t cover the same distance from either front to back or left to right while you drive. Think of a sharp turn. The inner wheel might go 20 feet while the outer travels 25. Something has to give unless you immediately make the same turn the other way. The same can happen front to back, think of swerving where the front travels a longer distance. Slip is the term for this correction. Either your tires slip because the terrain allows (mud, ice, snow, loose gravel) or your differential does. Locking in 4WD needs front to back slip, locking differentials needs left to right slip because you’ve told the differential to NOT slip. Without tire slip you will get binding.

4b). Wear. Staying in 4L and driving highway speeds requires more time in 7th gear (again the highest Ford enables for auto). It also only uses the one gear in the transfer case more than designers planned. And it runs both at higher RPMs than optimal. Over time this might wear out the gears, or it might not. Either way, it’s a risk you want to avoid and your Bronco won’t drive as smoothly because it has fewer gears. The opposite is true for 4H, you will use 1st gear more and at higher loads. Short durations of either are not concerning.

5). Ford. To make 4WD more fun and less risky the engineers at Ford introduced GOAT modes. You can use these almost with impunity. Simply select the mode that matches what you are doing and unselect it when you’re done. And Ford does more than just making 4WD, differentials, L and H less risky for the average driver. Ford seamlessly uses all these options WHILE controling throttle response and who knows what else (well, not me anyway). I plan to use their functions almost exclusively at first because I know they’ve thought it through more than I ever could, especially on the fly. Pros here and the ones getting paid, this might not be true. For me, those modes with occasional minor tweaks ONLY when off road are perfect. I can only improve by experience and maybe through some scenario videos.

6). Turn assist, low speed cruise, and for Badlands stay bar disconnect are buttons every Bronco owner should learn if you plan to do anything off-road. They’re simple too.

sorry if this came across as preachy, sometimes just typing it out helps my own understanding

 

[DefNotBuddyLee]

I cover the outside of my tires with baby oil so I don't have to worry about the transfer case binding. Braking performance takes a big hit, though.

 

[Razorbak86]

The GOAT modes both make 4 wheeling easier and more complex. I consider myself extremely knowledgeable about powertrains, but not experienced. There are two lanes of learning. Technology and Scenarios. I recommend starting with learning what the technology actually does. Only then can you begin to apply this to the infinite scenarios experienced in the real world. Often times people skip to scenarios, get confused, frustrated and ultimately make mistakes. So I’m going to focus almost entirely on the technology here. 2, 3, and 4 will ignore the existence of GOAT and 4Auto.

1. GOAT. You can use these modes and never touch the buttons. That’s how they’re designed. 95% of drivers will likely do better using this strategy as Ford controls more than just the differential and lockers.

2. Not using GOAT or tweaking it can be advantageous to those 5% who really know what they’re doing. Explaining every scenario is impossible and this is what confuses people. The only way to really learn is by doing It yourself (videos of guys driving are also good) and knowing the basics.

2a). Traction control. Limits wheel spin. This is adequate for 99% of on pavement driving for 99% of drivers, even in snow, rain, ice. The reality is, once spin is controlled, tires and anti-lock braking matter much, much more unless you‘re stuck or at high risk of getting stuck. 4WD does zero for the guy sliding off the expressway or through an intersection. Even recovery while in a sliding event is a maybe at best because once you’ve lost traction, there’s little diverted power can do. It can help getting moving, which I will cover.

2b). 4WD. Makes sure your front and rear axles see the same torque. If you’re in deep snow this is where 4WD can help for on pavement driving. Not in keeping you from sliding off the road, but in slower speed cornering and the ability to climb hills.

2c). 4L and 4H. Again, both front and rear axles are getting torque. You have two gears in the transfer case. For a given RPM, the transmission has 7 speeds in the manual, 10 in the auto to move at different speeds. The transfer case doubles these, much like a bike. Low will cap the vehicle speed at a certain level for a given gear and RPM. So let’s say 2500 RPM in tenth. In low you might go 40 MPH, while in high it could be 70 MPH. so the only way to go faster in 4L is higher RPM. So why would anyone ever intentionally limit the # of gears available? People use 4L when going slow on ups and downs because it makes the throttle response easier to control. Pushing 50% of the way down = 20 MPH for instance versus 35 MPH in high so it’s easier to go a steady or predictable slow speed without having a perfect feel for the gas pedal. 4H in Baja applications is similarly good for modulating speed a higher MPH.

2d). Locking differentials. 4WD makes sure the front and rear axles get torque. But they can still slip from left to right if one wheel is stuck or hanging in the air. Locking the differential solves this by making it essentially solid. This will get you out of stuck positions too severe for even 4WD. It Is the essence of why the Bronco was built in my opinion, but maybe 2% of owners will ever truly need this capability.

3). Damage. Being in the wrong locked state for too long can break or prematurely wear things. There are two concerns drivers should have.

3a). Turning. Wheels don’t cover the same distance from either front to back or left to right while you drive. Think of a sharp turn. The inner wheel might go 20 feet while the outer travels 25. Something has to give unless you immediately make the same turn the other way. Slip is the term for this correction. Either your tires slip because the terrain allows (mud, ice, snow, loose gravel) or you differential does. Locking in 4WD needs front to back slip, locking differentials needs left to right slip because you’ve told the differential to NOT slip. Without tire slip you will get binding.

4b). Wear. Staying in 4L and driving highway speeds requires more time in top gear (10th for the auto). It also only uses the one gear in the transfer case more than designers planned. And it runs both at higher RPMs than optimal. Over time this might wear out the gears, or it might not. Either way, it’s a risk you want to avoid and your Bronco won’t drive as smoothly because it has fewer gears. The opposite is true for 4H, you will use 1st gear more and at higher loads. Short durations of either are not concerning.

5). Ford. To make 4WD more fun and less risky the engineers at Ford introduced 4A and GOAT modes. You can use these almost with impunity. And they do more than just making 4WD, differentials, L and H less risky for the average driver. Ford controls throttle response and who knows what else (well, not me anyway). I plan to use their functions almost exclusively at first because I know they’ve thought it through more than I ever could, especially on the fly. Pros here and the ones getting paid, this might not be true. For me, those modes with occasional minor tweaks ONLY when off road are perfect. I can only improve by experience and maybe through some scenario videos.

6). Turn assist, low speed cruise, and for Badlands stay bar disconnect are buttons every Bronco owner should learn. They’re simple too.

sorry if this came across as preachy, sometimes just typing it out helps my own understanding

That’s a great write-up and probably deserves it’s own dedicated thread. Well done!

 

[greenmachine343]

So i drove around in BAJA 2H today and hated it. It felt like i was raping the engine with how high it kept the RPM's. I dont know much about cars , and know its an off road mode , but it really seemed like the car was fighting this mode. Is it bad for the car? It felt like every time it shifted it was completely wrong , like i could do better with the manual switch on the gear shift.

I am sort of addicted to the sound and acceleration so i was wondering if anybody had any suggestions. Do they sell plug in sport mode modules? I really like this "all out" mode for driving around its tons of fun , however I dunno if baja in 2h is good for the tranny or engine with those RPM's like that

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