Ford agrees to $9.2 billion US government loan

[Ryslegit]

EV's will be the future someday...but not in the next 10 years or so as CA is pushing for. I think the next step should be plug in hybrid vehicles like the Toyota Prime lineup before jumping to full EV. As an actual CA resident, I foresee the 2035 deadline being extended in some manner as it's just not realistic. To those complaining about how EVs are being heavily subsidized, lets not forget the US fossil fuel industry is also subsidized. If you want to bring jobs back to America and be an industry leader, there needs to be monetary incentives to do so. Corporations aren't going to do it out of the goodness of their hearts...

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[Bikeric]

I have to give Stellantis credit for doing the right thing here: https://www.carscoops.com/2023/06/s...-only-cars-to-14-states-including-california/

The best way to get a bad Law overturned is to fully enforce it. The people will get fed up and repeal it. I wish every auto manufacturer would just stop selling ICE vehicles in these dozen States so that the people would quickly discover what they actually voted for.

 

[Arrowbear Rider]

What happens if next year there is a ground breaking technology that renders all current energy sources obsolete?

Then the laws can be changed. In fact I bet the laws are changed or amended as needed. If new tech or when deadlines become impossible to make, lobbyist will pay a politician to amend or change.

I've lived in both rural areas and cities, my last home would have cost me too much to add the charging capability to, but the new owner was financially was able to put a whole new and updated electrical system in including the breaker panel on, which included the 150' of cable to the charging location. Point is some can do, others can't. And many rural areas it just won't work or be efficient, but that doesn't mean there can't be uses for EVs too.

In the cities there are needs for daily commuters that don't require hundreds of miles of range and those people don't have to charge up any where but their homes at night when it's cheaper and less usage of the grid. But another reason it'll work in the cities is, one of the biggest changes I'm seeing is: NONE of my friends kids seem to care about car ownership or getting their drivers license even. My friends' two oldest sons got their DL at 21 and 19 and still don't have a car; cost them less to ride share and ride an electric bike than pay for all of the insurance and ownership of a car.

A daughter in college uses bike, electric scooters and ride shares and buses around campus and the metro to the ocean, but owns no car too. They just don't seem to care about a DL like we did anymore. And they will be the first to jump into a small driver less taxi.

Lastly, I'm generally intrigued by the idea that they are producing some of the cleanest lithium in the world as a by product of geothermal energy in the Salton Sea. The fact that we can't process it here and (currently) ship overseas to refine and make the final products is the problem, one where there is already plans/investment in bring a plant(s) to America.

Remember we use lithium batteries in everything electronic now, not just cars and developing that resource on such a massive scale as automotive will also bring down costs and provide opportunity here in America.

It's not just about cars, it's about everything that uses batteries, but a venture as large as the automobile industry will drive it bigger faster.

And those 2035 laws will change when they can't do it all, but the benefits to get part of the way there will provide opportunity and energy (geothermal).

 

[Bikeric]

Lastly, I'm generally intrigued by the idea that they are producing some of the cleanest lithium in the world as a by product of geothermal energy in the Salton Sea. The fact that we can't process it here and (currently) ship overseas to refine and make the final products is the problem, one where there is already plans/investment in bring a plant(s) to America.

Remember we use lithium batteries in everything electronic now, not just cars and developing that resource on such a massive scale as automotive will also bring down costs and provide opportunity here in America.

I used to work for a Fluorine chemical company. We made Fluoride for tooth paste, water treatment and Lithium Fluoride (Li-F) for batteries. We made the purest Li-F on the market and had contracts with both Duracell and Energizer. The company went bankrupt because processing the waste water became too expensive. Chemical processing and refinement is much cheaper in countries without an EPA.

Edit: I want to say I agree with keeping the environment clean and never would have cut corners like dumping chemicals into the river. I live here and prefer to keep it clean.

 

[Arrowbear Rider]

I used to work for a Fluorine chemical company. We made Fluoride for tooth paste, water treatment and Lithium Fluoride (Li-F) for batteries. We made the purest Li-F on the market and had contracts with both Duracell and Energizer. The company went bankrupt because processing the waste water became too expensive. Chemical processing and refinement is much cheaper in countries without an EPA.

Very true, especially with mined lithium, but they are already taking out the Lithium from the brine and then pumping the brine back into the ground, it's a filter that extracts the lithium.

From the Desert Sun:

"The traditional ways of mining lithium are really destructive and really hard on the environment for local communities, and so the attraction of geothermal lithium is that the footprint is small," UC Riverside geochemist Michael McKibben said. "You're not digging pits, you're not putting huge evaporation ponds on the surface, because the brine is already brought up for the steam, so it's just a matter of tacking on a lithium filter to that brine before you reinject it back into the ground."

I just recently learned about all of this when researching for stocks and other EV posts here. This all almost sounds too good to be true, but after many videos and articles I'm excited for the opportunity this brings to America. Geothermal energy with a by product of lithium and no waste? No chemicals are used so the brine minus the lithium goes right back into the ground.

I find that compelling and somewhat amazing.

 

[Rkgzx9leftcoast]

EVs are a Giant Boondoggle. FACT

 

[OCNORB1974]

Or for 1/62,000th of that you could hire someone that could manage the Bronco scheduling/logistics a bit better.

‘tis a thought….

YOU NEED PARTS

 

[Sherminiator]

Some information

 

[msofka]

I disagree with this. It can also focus the effort in the wrong direction. California has a law on the books that by 2035 every new vehicle sold must be electric. Not zero emissions, electric. What happens if next year there is a ground breaking technology that renders all current energy sources obsolete? The current energy storage solutions (in this case batteries) are not sufficient to render ICE vehicles obsolete. Especially with a date that some politician pulled out of his ass. EV's with the current technology have there place. City vehicles, local delivery trucks, mass transit, etc.

I travel frequently between my house in Portland and my house in NW Montana. 606 miles door to door. My F150 Raptor can make the trip without stopping for fuel (36 gallon tank). I make the trip comfortably is 9 hours. How long would that take in the F150 Lightning? Once I hit northern Idaho the EV charging stations are few and far between. The nearest one to my house is 65 miles away.
Build all of the EV's you want, but you need the infrastructure to support it. Power grid, charging stations, etc.

The problem is… people in NYC, SF, LA, etc have never left their bubble. They don’t understand that drive, and to them, you and I are dumb rednecks who are to stupid to understand and just do what they say.

 

[North7]

Farley and some of the top management needs to go. I think they sold Bill a great plan with the hopes of cementing their legacy within the company. This should've been a 10 year build up with a lot of hybrid development and perfection in that time frame. The government passed a huge spending bill and Ford took the bait and went full out. What's going to happen when the political winds shift?

@flip, sad to hear what a pain it has become being a Ford dealer. There are a number of us behind you in the call for "Farley and some of the top management needs to go." This has been very apparent for several years with the continued product delivery and quality issues. Farely is always promising it will improve, but it never comes to reality, instead, they just dream up more window dressing for Wall Street.

Jim Farley reminds me of the conniving and sceaming Leo Beebe, Henry Ford II's second in command, in the movie Ford vs Ferrari. Likewise, Jim Farley is second to Bill Ford, but it seems clear, the Peter Principle is alive and well.

 

[North7]

Another news outlet has an interesting headline for their take of the latest news:

Ford's EV war chest is being built out of job cuts and federal loans

Ford’s electric vehicle (EV) business’ balance sheet is in dire need of balancing. The Dearborn, Michigan-based automaker is expecting to cut salaried jobs across its EV and gas-engine divisions, as well as its software unit, in the coming weeks, sources told the Wall Street Journal, which first reported on the new round of layoffs. The number of cuts is unknown. Quartz contacted Ford for comment.

Most EV players, be it legacy carmakers or startups, are clocking large losses as inflationary pressures keep prices of raw materials high. Ford’s downsizing efforts follow in the footsteps of rivals streamlining operations. Recently, General Motors and Stellantis offered employee buyouts to encourage voluntary departures.

 

[jwoobs]

Part of the reason I bought my Bronco is because of the high percentage of US parts. More US manufacturing is an unequivocal win my book. Especially cutting edge technology.

Regarding ICE vs EV: Gasoline is pretty much capped out in terms of energy efficiency. And As the easy to extract oil disappears, it’s only going to get dirtier and more expensive.

With EVs they are working on increasing recycling rates, and we can continue to green up the grid with renewables.

My mother recently got a MachE and loves it. For 99.9% of her driving she can plug in at home and always have a full “tank” every morning.

There are serious convenience and emissions advantages to EVs, and I think it’s silly to dismiss them out of hand.

 

[Sherminiator]

Another news outlet has an interesting headline for their take of the latest news:

Ford's EV war chest is being built out of job cuts and federal loans

The unfortunate fact is that being an ICE engineer is now a dead end job.

Just look at all the different engines that Ford offers now. With moving to electric motors-more power can be added by just adding additional motors, for example the Mach E 1400 puts out 1400 HP from 7 EV motors vs 2 in the Mach E GT.

https://media.ford.com/content/ford...h-e-1400-prototype-by-ford-performance-a.html

ICE is more or less fully developed for the next 10-12 years...with ICE bans coming in the EU and China sooner than the US.

 

[North7]

The unfortunate fact is that being an ICE engineer is now a dead end job.

ICE is more or less fully developed for the next 10-12 years...with ICE bans coming in the EU and China sooner than the US.

No so fast...

Porsche Working on Synthetic Fuel to Make ICE Cars as Clean as EVs

 

[Sherminiator]

No so fast...

Porsche Working on Synthetic Fuel to Make ICE Cars as Clean as EVs

The problem with synthetic fuel is that you NEVER replace dino juice fuel with it. It will be great for keeping your 2022 Bronco Running in 2052 at $10+ bucks a gallon.

Then you get into the whole efficiency issue with making biofuels-you wind up wasting more energy making it then the end product produces. That is why hydrogen is a nonstarter for the vast majority of applications-its energy density is poor (worse than a battery) and to make it, your better off using the electricity to charge a battery instead and its almost impossible to transport long distances.

The primary driver for EVs and the removal of ICE is to cut down on CO2 emissions.

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