Brand new bronco overheated today [Updated 8/19]

[Sooner]

A lot are on the cusp of retirement and have decided to cash out early. The flat rate pay system that worked well 40 years ago is no longer workable. There is a ideal work mix of retail, warranty and internal that has shifted to less better paying retail work which means less hours and ultimately lower pay. Ford in particular, is an absolute thief when it comes to warranty/recall labor times. This is a big reason Ford techs are leaving. They basically pay us less than half the time it takes to do a repair. No matter how efficient techs get, they can rarely ever meet or beat the set time which means they lose money. If the general public really knew how Ford did their dealers on the service side they would be sick.

We do the repair and do it right, get paid half of what we should, then worry about getting an entire claim charged back if we didn't use the right brake clean or engine shampoo. We, along with other dealers have eaten thousands of dollars in claims because we didn't charge a degreasing "baby wipe" out on the repair. Whole engine claim, charge back.

Those are a few reasons but the other problem is younger people wanting to get into the business. I have technicians between $70K-$100K, some $100K+ with a median income in our area of $55K. We don't have turnover and pay our guys hourly. Probably have some of the best in southern Indiana and usually the highest fixed right first time scores in our market area.

A lot of people see this industry as a place people go when they can't get into college or "grease monkey". That is the furthest from reality. It can pay very well if you find the right dealer and are motivated. All of the manufacturers and dealers have seen this coming for years. Ford has forced more and more on the techs, paying less and using the excuse of, "it's the dealer's problem". While that's true, how's that going to work out for customer satisfaction when you have doctor office appointment and wait times?

I could go on for hours but the people who know things need to change refuse to listen so this is what happens. Rant over.

Keep preaching, someone needs to hear it! Mechanic, machinest, welders, ect don’t get the credit they deserve.

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[flip]

Keep preaching, someone needs to hear it! Mechanic, machinest, welders, ect don’t get the credit they deserve.

Don't think their servers are big enough. The trades have been on the decline for decades because a lot of people don't like to do this type of physical work, doesn't provide the income they desire for their standard of living, have come to accept the label this type of work is for the, "kids that dropped out of high school" or "weren't smart enough to get into college". None of which are accurate. On and on.

Everyone seems to love Tesla's sales model but don't talk about their mobile service guys pulling the dash out in their driveway because they don't have a shop to work out of. This is fine if you're in a metro area, their number of units in service is matched to the number of service techs in an area. This all goes down the tubes once that balance isn't maintained. So how long is it then before everyone knows they can buy a Tesla but there aren't any techs out there to fix them when there are problems? This won't be isolated to Tesla and will only make the remaining techs more valuable and expensive. Expensive=passing that cost along to the customer.

We put up a parts warehouse and need more lighting. I called the electricians that did the work and was told, "we'll get over there sometime" That was 3 months ago and a second, polite, phone call. My options? Have my maintenance guy try to do it or wait. Will be the same way with construction workers, HVAC, plumbers and every other trade in the near future. At some point it won't be a matter of money, it will be the complete lack of interest in these industries all together.

 

[Sooner]

It’s crazy, I graduated Valedictorian of my high school and have some college but I can make better money mechanicing in the oil field.

 

[Thed]

A lot are on the cusp of retirement and have decided to cash out early. The flat rate pay system that worked well 40 years ago is no longer workable. There is a ideal work mix of retail, warranty and internal that has shifted to less better paying retail work which means less hours and ultimately lower pay. Ford in particular, is an absolute thief when it comes to warranty/recall labor times. This is a big reason Ford techs are leaving. They basically pay us less than half the time it takes to do a repair. No matter how efficient techs get, they can rarely ever meet or beat the set time which means they lose money. If the general public really knew how Ford did their dealers on the service side they would be sick.

We do the repair and do it right, get paid half of what we should, then worry about getting an entire claim charged back if we didn't use the right brake clean or engine shampoo. We, along with other dealers have eaten thousands of dollars in claims because we didn't charge a degreasing "baby wipe" out on the repair. Whole engine claim, charge back.

Those are a few reasons but the other problem is younger people wanting to get into the business. I have technicians between $70K-$100K, some $100K+ with a median income in our area of $55K. We don't have turnover and pay our guys hourly. Probably have some of the best in southern Indiana and usually the highest fixed right first time scores in our market area.

A lot of people see this industry as a place people go when they can't get into college or "grease monkey". That is the furthest from reality. It can pay very well if you find the right dealer and are motivated. All of the manufacturers and dealers have seen this coming for years. Ford has forced more and more on the techs, paying less and using the excuse of, "it's the dealer's problem". While that's true, how's that going to work out for customer satisfaction when you have doctor office appointment and wait times?

I could go on for hours but the people who know things need to change refuse to listen so this is what happens. Rant over.

All of this is 100% correct. I work for a Peterbilt dealer, and get paid hourly. I get scored on my efficiency (time in vs. time billed), but other than that it doesn't make a damn bit of difference how long I stay on a job.

You want to know the norm for flat-rate shops? Most pull a code, replace a random part, charge the dude double what it actually takes to actually perform the repair (to make up for getting shafted by warranty), and cross your fingers as you hope it doesn't come back.

I take the time to diagnose, because I can. I'm mobile, so my own personal reputation is on the line with every repair since I'm the one making all the interactions and repairs for the customer. My trucks don't come back, and the customer is ultimately happier.

 

[flip]

All of this is 100% correct. I work for a Peterbilt dealer, and get paid hourly. I get scored on my efficiency (time in vs. time billed), but other than that it doesn't make a damn bit of difference how long I stay on a job.

You want to know the norm for flat-rate shops? Most pull a code, replace a random part, charge the dude double what it actually takes to actually perform the repair (to make up for getting shafted by warranty), and cross your fingers as you hope it doesn't come back.

I take the time to diagnose, because I can. I'm mobile, so my own personal reputation is on the line with every repair since I'm the one making all the interactions and repairs for the customer. My trucks don't come back, and the customer is ultimately happier.

The flat rate system almost begs to be abused. It's more an exception than the rule but if a tech, advisor, service manager are paid on billable hours what do you think is going to happen? Pay plans drive behavior. I would say the vast majority of techs and shops don't operate like this but it's the unfortunate few that give everyone a bad name.

Hourly, salary or some combo helps with retention, is easier to forecast labor costs, doesn't penalize the tech for odd ball problems or low pay warranty times. That said, my production is not what I would like it to be but the trade off is having well trained techs that take the time needed to fix it right and not worrying about how many tenths they can claim or racing the clock for the next job.

IMO, flat rate is one of the biggest factors, beside the usual manufacturer BS, causing techs to bail.

 

[KnoxGnater]

Well that explains it, she bought it in Texas and it broke down in Tennessee, bet she didn't switch to a vinegar based sauce when crossing state lines.

If she's in Memphis, it may be ketchup based? Note, I don't condone that kind of sacrilege. Vinegar FTW!!

I grew up a Yankee, where "pork bbq" was Heinz BBQ sauce, pork roast, and a crock pot.

 

[AgentKooper]

Ya, well my "real world issue" is that my vehicle is built and my vehicle is paid for... and I am standing here making a payment on a vehicle that I don't have and that Ford has been paid for. That's a real world issue... don't you think?!?

How is your vehicle paid for if you haven’t taken delivery of it yet?

 

[Sooner]

All of this is 100% correct. I work for a Peterbilt dealer, and get paid hourly. I get scored on my efficiency (time in vs. time billed), but other than that it doesn't make a damn bit of difference how long I stay on a job.

You want to know the norm for flat-rate shops? Most pull a code, replace a random part, charge the dude double what it actually takes to actually perform the repair (to make up for getting shafted by warranty), and cross your fingers as you hope it doesn't come back.

I take the time to diagnose, because I can. I'm mobile, so my own personal reputation is on the line with every repair since I'm the one making all the interactions and repairs for the customer. My trucks don't come back, and the customer is ultimately happier.

Said it for years, chase the problem don’t just change parts.

 

[goatman]

Ya, well my "real world issue" is that my vehicle is built and my vehicle is paid for... and I am standing here making a payment on a vehicle that I don't have and that Ford has been paid for. That's a real world issue... don't you think?!?

It would take all of a few seconds to tell me something, anything, a proper phone number, or even offer to send me a stupid hammock... Nope. Nothing. They don't even let me pull up my sticker.

How in the heck are you making a payment on a car that you haven't taken delivery of yet? What bank would make that loan, and why do you have a sales/finance contract when the vehicle isn't there yet? Sorry, don't understand this, worked at dealerships for 29 yrs.

 

[goatman]

The flat rate system almost begs to be abused. It's more an exception than the rule but if a tech, advisor, service manager are paid on billable hours what do you think is going to happen? Pay plans drive behavior. I would say the vast majority of techs and shops don't operate like this but it's the unfortunate few that give everyone a bad name.

Hourly, salary or some combo helps with retention, is easier to forecast labor costs, doesn't penalize the tech for odd ball problems or low pay warranty times. That said, my production is not what I would like it to be but the trade off is having well trained techs that take the time needed to fix it right and not worrying about how many tenths they can claim or racing the clock for the next job.

IMO, flat rate is one of the biggest factors, beside the usual manufacturer BS, causing techs to bail.

Flat rate is the easiest to forecast labor costs. It provides a fixed cost per billed hour. If a tech is paid clock hours, how do you figure labor cost per billed hour if you don't know how many hours will be spent on the job? I'm pretty straight up with my crew, and occasionally make this analogy:

If a tech makes $20 an hour, and bills 20 hrs a week, then labor cost if $40 an hr. If a tech makes $30 an hour and bills 30 hrs a week, labor cost is $40 an hour. If a tech is paid $40 an hour, and bills 40 hrs a week, then labor cost is $40 an hour.

I own an independent shop now. I managed dealerships for 29 years. As you have said, paying techs in a way that is fair to all and rewards productivity and quality is not an easy thing to do. Thankfully, we don't have to contend with factory warranty times like at the dealership, but we do have to contend with service contract companies, and parts house labor claims, which is similar. Labor law dictates paying clock hours (so any overtime can be correctly calculated and paid), so we pay techs clock hours with a sliding hourly rate based on productivity.

Good techs are hard to find, and young people don't realize how well paying a job it is. I have 7 techs, and 3-4 of them are $80k plus, and it's 8-5 Mon-Fri. Thankfully, we have a training program, so we're able to move guys up and so have a couple apprentices.

On the other side, customers need to realize that we are continually raising our tech pay to retain and attract good techs. We're dealing with a market where a good tech is in high demand, and we need to convince new people to enter as apprentices with good pay as a goal. This means we are continually raising our labor rates. Have to, no choice. Also, with the advanced tech that is in new vehicles, we have to keep our training and equipment up to date which also costs. There will be a continuing spread between good shops that are keeping up and smaller shops that are not.

Sorry to get off track of the topic of this thread, but this particular topic is worth commenting on. Sorry to the OP that he had trouble getting good service at that dealership. Would not have happened at most places. I was 15 years at my last dealership job, which was Ford, and if you had walked up to the front, asked to see the manager, I would have walked out, grabbed the service advisor, and popped the hood of your Bronco to see what the heck was going on.

 

[flip]

Flat rate is the easiest to forecast labor costs. It provides a fixed cost per billed hour. If a tech is paid clock hours, how do you figure labor cost per billed hour if you don't know how many hours will be spent on the job? I'm pretty straight up with my crew, and occasionally make this analogy:

If a tech makes $20 an hour, and bills 20 hrs a week, then labor cost if $40 an hr. If a tech makes $30 an hour and bills 30 hrs a week, labor cost is $40 an hour. If a tech is paid $40 an hour, and bills 40 hrs a week, then labor cost is $40 an hour.

I own an independent shop now. I managed dealerships for 29 years. As you have said, paying techs in a way that is fair to all and rewards productivity and quality is not an easy thing to do. Thankfully, we don't have to contend with factory warranty times like at the dealership, but we do have to contend with service contract companies, and parts house labor claims, which is similar. Labor law dictates paying clock hours (so any overtime can be correctly calculated and paid), so we pay techs clock hours with a sliding hourly rate based on productivity.

Good techs are hard to find, and young people don't realize how well paying a job it is. I have 7 techs, and 3-4 of them are $80k plus, and it's 8-5 Mon-Fri. Thankfully, we have a training program, so we're able to move guys up and so have a couple apprentices.

On the other side, customers need to realize that we are continually raising our tech pay to retain and attract good techs. We're dealing with a market where a good tech is in high demand, and we need to convince new people to enter as apprentices with good pay as a goal. This means we are continually raising our labor rates. Have to, no choice. Also, with the advanced tech that is in new vehicles, we have to keep our training and equipment up to date which also costs. There will be a continuing spread between good shops that are keeping up and smaller shops that are not.

Sorry to get off track of the topic of this thread, but this particular topic is worth commenting on. Sorry to the OP that he had trouble getting good service at that dealership. Would not have happened at most places. I was 15 years at my last dealership job, which was Ford, and if you had walked up to the front, asked to see the manager, I would have walked out, grabbed the service advisor, and popped the hood of your Bronco to see what the heck was going on.

The forecasting piece is me looking at it on an annual basis knowing how many regular and overtime hours they are working. When you get down to putting a pay plan together it gets really dicey with flat rate and predicting how much work will come into the shop and how it gets distributed. There are many, many ways to set up a plan and what we've seen is guys would rather have a predictable weekly than worry about what is coming in the door. Pay plans are always tricky to put together but I will agree with you, there is no reason this couldn't have been diagnosed that or at least, the next business day. External coolant leaks are generally some of the easiest to diagnose and most of the time can be confirmed visually.

 

[dcg2]

Only when they feel like it. Would love to know what makes some people worth responding to and others not worth even a single email.

The problem is they saw you're a Ferrari owner so they know the amount of crap you're willing to put up with from a car manufacturer.

 

[goatman]

The forecasting piece is me looking at it on an annual basis knowing how many regular and overtime hours they are working. When you get down to putting a pay plan together it gets really dicey with flat rate and predicting how much work will come into the shop and how it gets distributed. There are many, many ways to set up a plan and what we've seen is guys would rather have a predictable weekly than worry about what is coming in the door. Pay plans are always tricky to put together but I will agree with you, there is no reason this couldn't have been diagnosed that or at least, the next business day. External coolant leaks are generally some of the easiest to diagnose and most of the time can be confirmed visually.

Yep, I'm with you there. Also, forecasting potential sales volume based on labor inventory which includes the predicted tech productivity. Thankfully, we are busy all the time. We have maybe one day a year where a few techs run out of work for an afternoon. Through this summer, on a Wed we typically have 70+ open repair orders. Gotta be on our game to manage customer expectations and work flow.

 

[Deleted member 3063]

surprised someone didn't guess the correct diagnosis

 

[flip]

Yep, I'm with you there. Also, forecasting potential sales volume based on labor inventory which includes the predicted tech productivity. Thankfully, we are busy all the time. We have maybe one day a year where a few techs run out of work for an afternoon. Through this summer, on a Wed we typically have 70+ open repair orders. Gotta be on our game to manage customer expectations and work flow.

Love it. Busy=doing it right!

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