2.7L w/ manual trans (is Ford listening?)

[Goocci gang]

Anyone know if there's enough buzz going around to support a change by Ford to allow an upgrade from the 2.3L to the 2.7L without having to also change to the 10-speed automatic transmission? I guess what I'm asking is, do you all think that groups and forums like this one are loud enough for Ford to reconsider their decision or is there too much engineering behind something like this (2.3L/7-speed manual vs 2.7L/10-speed auto) for them to change this late in the game?

Thoughts... ?

Judging by chryslar and the Years of wrangler requests.... No lol

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[DrewBronc21]

This petition has 3800 votes. Let’s get more:

https://www.change.org/p/ford-offer-the-2021-ford-bronco-with-a-manual-transmission-for-all-packages

 

[BroncoFanBoy]

There definitely appears to be a lack of confidence from Ford on what the 7speed can handle. Not sure why everyone is pushing to make ford let them have it if that is the case. Probably too much liability for Ford to offer and warranty it as it sits. Maybe they’ll beef up the 7speed for future year models.... just speculation/opinion.

 

[DrewBronc21]

There definitely appears to be a lack of confidence from Ford on what the 7speed can handle. Not sure why everyone is pushing to make ford let them have it if that is the case. Probably too much liability for Ford to offer and warranty it as it sits. Maybe they’ll beef up the 7speed for future year models.... just speculation/opinion.

the 7mt is “scalable“ to 590 torque. They should scale it

 

[eatworksleepdie]

the 7mt is “scalable“ to 590 torque. They should scale it

agreed. Pretty sure all auto companies scale the available HP output way back to make them dummy proof.

 

[lobbs611]

agreed. Pretty sure all auto companies scale the available HP output way back to make them dummy proof.

I did the math awhile back. The max torque output of the motor multiplied thru all the gearing in the drivetrain when in the lowest transmission gear (torque applied at the wheel in crawler for the manual and 1st for the auto) is almost identical between the 2.3L/7M and the 2.7L/10A.

Sure, they could beef up the manual to serve behind the V6. But it would be my educated guess that something down the driveline is really the limiting factor. Either the transfer case, differentials, CVs. They'd have to adjust the gearing in the beefed up manual, transfer case or the differential so as to not exceed whatever safety margin they have somewhere else in the driveline. There's an old hot rodder's adage about how upgrading one thing will break the next weakest link.

 

[Xodric]

Someone or some company will come up with a solution. Just won't come from Ford.

 

[stickshifter]

First gear is not even 3:1! Good luck moving anything with that with out a Dana 60.



Take rate on wrangler is close to 12% give or take depending on year. But gladiator ate into those sales. Jeep didn’t gain any customers with that.

That leaves Tacoma. Which is close to 5%

So it might be a little higher but not much. And it’s trending down.

Damn dude, you're hard to please. How about these ratios in a 5-speed stick from Rockland ? Its got a super-low first gear (and reverse), and fifth is an overdrive gear (which should address your concern about highway mileage):

1st	2nd	3rd	4th	5th	Reverse
6.16	3.11	1.71	1-1	0.77	6.03

But more to the point: when Ford went to Getrag and handed them the specs for the 2.3 and said "we'd like a manual transmission for this engine" why didn't they just hand them the specs for both the 2.3 and the 2.7? The additional cost of developing a manual for both engines would have been marginal.

 

[FirstOnRaceDay]

Damn dude, you're hard to please. How about these ratios in a 5-speed stick from Rockland ? Its got a super-low first gear (and reverse), and fifth is an overdrive gear (which should address your concern about highway mileage):

1st	2nd	3rd	4th	5th	Reverse
6.16	3.11	1.71	1-1	0.77	6.03

But more to the point: when Ford went to Getrag and handed them the specs for the 2.3 and said "we'd like a manual transmission for this engine" why didn't they just hand them the specs for both the 2.3 and the 2.7? The additional cost of developing a manual for both engines would have been marginal.

no it would not have Been marginal.
new bell hosing and gearing and rear end combinations plus EPA testing
It’s not as simple as slap it in there and it works.
hence why the
2.3, 5.0 and 5.2 mustang ALLL have different gearing and different rear ends. Even tho they are all a 6 speed manual.

it takes a lot of work to make a manual for production use.

if you want to swap in a manual be my guest

 

[Cookieck]

no it would not have Been marginal.
new bell hosing and gearing and rear end combinations plus EPA testing
It’s not as simple as slap it in there and it works.
hence why the
2.3, 5.0 and 5.2 mustang ALLL have different gearing and different rear ends. Even tho they are all a 6 speed manual.

it takes a lot of work to make a manual for production use.

You know how many vehicles use the TR6060 transmission with different bellhousings and gear ratios and rear ends? Mustangs, vettes, vipers, camaros, challengers, and more. Yet it’s still just a tr6060. And the t56 before it was similarly used in multiple configurations across multiple vehicles. It’s possible to make a transmission that works with multiple engines and multiple configurations, and if you went in from the start with that in mind then yea the money would only be marginally more since you’re already developing a transmission anyways. Heck, tremec had the 7speed tr6070 based on the tr6060 that’s only been used in the c7 vette so far, how many of them do you think were sold when they only sold 30k total vettes a year? Yet they made a new transmission just for it. Likely the bronco will sale more manuals than that. And the vette had 3 different engines with the manual. So they certified 3 manual engine/trans combos for one vehicle that sold less than 30k total each year.

 

[FirstOnRaceDay]

You know how many vehicles use the TR6060 transmission with different bellhousings and gear ratios and rear ends? Mustangs, vettes, vipers, camaros, challengers, and more. Yet it’s still just a tr6060. And the t56 before it was similarly used in multiple configurations across multiple vehicles. It’s possible to make a transmission that works with multiple engines and multiple configurations, and if you went in from the start with that in mind then yea the money would only be marginally more since you’re already developing a transmission anyways. Heck, tremec had the 7speed tr6070 based on the tr6060 that’s only been used in the c7 vette so far, how many of them do you think were sold when they only sold 30k total vettes a year? Yet they made a new transmission just for it. Likely the bronco will sale more manuals than that. And the vette had 3 different engines with the manual. So they certified 3 manual engine/trans combos for one vehicle that sold less than 30k total each year.

corvette is also 2x -3x the price of a bronco.
As I’ve said before you COULD make a transmission work for both. However The gearing would be awkward for each. It’s better to have a gear set up that fits the engine perfectly. Especially an off road Turbo set up.
Ford very easily could whip together another transmission set up but it would cost to much.

As I’ve said before. I think your only going to see 10-15,000 manual Broncos sold annually and that’s high balling.
Adding a 2.7 manual wouldn’t make that number increase by much (12-17k maybe) it would just have people spread out over both set ups. Meaning ford would have spent hundreds of thousands of dollars for 2000 more customers annually? Not worth it.

 

[Cookieck]

corvette is also 2x -3x the price of a bronco.
As I’ve said before you COULD make a transmission work for both. However The gearing would be awkward for each. It’s better to have a gear set up that fits the engine perfectly. Especially an off road Turbo set up.
Ford very easily could whip together another transmission set up but it would cost to much.

As I’ve said before. I think your only going to see 10-15,000 manual Broncos sold annually and that’s high balling.
Adding a 2.7 manual wouldn’t make that number increase by much (12-17k maybe) it would just have people spread out over both set ups. Meaning ford would have spent hundreds of thousands of dollars for 2000 more customers annually? Not worth it.

2-3X price is funny. The first edition bronco costs 10k more than the base price of a c7 vette. Sure the highest optioned vette can top 100k+, but the ones they sell the most of are more like 70-80k give or take. Which is maybe double a base model bronco without too many options, but doesn’t even double higher trims or fully optioned broncos. The ZR1 is the most expensive model and they only had that one year of the c7 and only made 2500 of them. And given that broncos will likely sell triple or more a year than vettes easy, even IF they were triple the price it evens out. And even if your estimated 2k buyer increase was solely people going from a 2.3 to a 2.7 for manual, at say maybe an randomly estimated 3k price difference, that’s a $6million increase for ford, think that would pay off the hundreds of thousands spent on the transmission in one year, let alone multiple years. Even more when you included people that won’t even buy the bronco unless they make a 2.7 manual as that would be a full price of a sale that wouldn’t have happened otherwise. And have you looked at how many different gearing options they made for the 6060? You can make the same transmission with perfect gearing for 2 engines if tremec can make that in multiple different gear ratios for engines ranging from 400hp to 800hp(not to mention holds over 1200hp behind severely modded engines) with anywhere from 6cylinders to 10cylinders, at least one of which being a turbo engine. Yes there are differences, but I think you exaggerate them more than they really are. Ford could have made it, without that much extra cost, and would have recouped their cost within a couple years at least. They just chose not to.

 

[FirstOnRaceDay]

2-3X price is funny. The first edition bronco costs 10k more than the base price of a c7 vette. Sure the highest optioned vette can top 100k+, but the ones they sell the most of are more like 70-80k give or take. Which is maybe double a base model bronco without too many options, but doesn’t even double higher trims or fully optioned broncos. The ZR1 is the most expensive model and they only had that one year of the c7 and only made 2500 of them. And given that broncos will likely sell triple or more a year than vettes easy, even IF they were triple the price it evens out. And even if your estimated 2k buyer increase was solely people going from a 2.3 to a 2.7 for manual, at say maybe an randomly estimated 3k price difference, that’s a $6million increase for ford, think that would pay off the hundreds of thousands spent on the transmission in one year, let alone multiple years. Even more when you included people that won’t even buy the bronco unless they make a 2.7 manual as that would be a full price of a sale that wouldn’t have happened otherwise. And have you looked at how many different gearing options they made for the 6060? You can make the same transmission with perfect gearing for 2 engines if tremec can make that in multiple different gear ratios for engines ranging from 400hp to 800hp(not to mention holds over 1200hp behind severely modded engines) with anywhere from 6cylinders to 10cylinders, at least one of which being a turbo engine. Yes there are differences, but I think you exaggerate them more than they really are. Ford could have made it, without that much extra cost, and would have recouped their cost within a couple years at least. They just chose not to.

Bronco 30-65k
C7 Corvette 60k -140k yes 2-3x on average.

the ford 7 speed is a completely new transmission. Meaning if they wanted a 2.7 manual they would have to make up their own gearing. Which takes HOUR AND HOURS TO RND. Test driving. Computer models. And test after test for mpg and performance. Not to mention the EPA and IIHS testing. so it would cost hundreds of thousands of dollars to fully develop. And as I said for what 2,000 more customers that would have likely bought the bronco any way? Sorry they would not have made up their costs

 

[Cookieck]

Bronco 30-65k
C7 Corvette 60k -140k yes 2-3x on average.

the ford 7 speed is a completely new transmission. Meaning if they wanted a 2.7 manual they would have to make up their own gearing. Which takes HOUR AND HOURS TO RND. Test driving. Computer models. And test after test for mpg and performance. Not to mention the EPA and IIHS testing. so it would cost hundreds of thousands of dollars to fully develop. And as I said for what 2,000 more customers that would have likely bought the bronco any way? Sorry they would not have made up their costs

You’re taking the average of every single option, not what actually sold. No average corvette is anywhere near 140k, that would be a optioned zr1, and they only made 2500 c7 zr1s, and noway all of them had every option possible. They’re making 3x that of first edition broncos, which are more likely half the cost of the average priced zr1. If ford made an extreme bronco option that cost 250k and only sold 500 of them then the average price of a bronco wouldn’t be 150k, that’s a skewered statistic. What you’re most likely to see on the road and what actually sold the most is what the average corvette is, and it’s not 100k.

And any transmission, new or reworked for a certain model, has to do the testing to get the gearing right. So all of the options I mentioned for the tr6060 went thru the same testing to figure it out. And I’m sure after years of doing this with hundreds of engines and transmissions they would have a very good idea exactly where to start and only need fine tuning with the testing to finalize the ratios. Again, over exaggeration on how difficult it would really be.

And as I said, as little as a $3000 increase on an order order for as little as 2000 people would net ford 6million, that would more than pay for the transmission costs you keep saying are hundreds of thousands.

 

[cal jammer]

I think people are forgetting. Not only would ford have to RND a completely new drive train for the manual with the 2.7. cant just slap it in there and not tune the motor and adjust everything.

Also each drive train MUST be tested by EPA and IIHS. and that’s for 2 door and 4 door. So A LOT more testing (which is NOT cheap at all!)

all that up front cost and effort for what? 2,000 units a year After the first year for the 2.7. (<15,000 for Bronco manual total)

and that’s based on current take rates. Which is dropping like a ROCK year over year.

for 2019 More EVs were sold in the USA than Manual cars. Let that sink in.

and one of the reasons that Manuals aren't sold as much in the US is because of bone head decisions l(lke this exact one we are discussing) made by ford.

I want the manual but I want the 2.7 more.

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