ADM is alive and well

[brrke]

Can you please stop the immature name calling?

Can you name a more free market than the US?

I have/had the same opinion about ADMs forever, whether they affect me or not.

I know it's not long relative to many folks, but by the time I take delivery it will be 10 months. Is that enough wait and importantly uncertainty to be "OK" in your book? I actually don't care, but it seems relevant.

Did I get finessed or plan well not that MSRP minus my MSRP is 2.5 times higher than my ADM? How can you spout such presumptive nonsense without any of the facts?

It's not immature it's what you are currently being, just being blunt I don't think by your posts you would be doing some more mental gymnastics to justify yourself.

As for more free markets, yes here are 24 more free markets than the United States as per the 2023 index of economic freedom:

Let me know if you want anything else. Please let me know where I can send the invoice for an additional educational mark-up. (AEM)

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[archer87]

I sent my build list out to 10 dealerships two weeks ago and gave them a simple set of questions, the first of which was "are you charging ADM?" and the second was "do you require a deposit for an order for a Bronco?"

I refused to speak in person until they confirmed in writing that there was no ADM and no deposit.

"iTs A cApItAlIsT mArKeT" cuts both ways - tell dealers you won't accept ADM.

 

[swamp2]

It's not immature it's what you are currently being, just being blunt I don't think by your posts you would be doing some more mental gymnastics to justify yourself.

As for more free markets, yes here are 24 more free markets than the United States as per the 2023 index of economic freedom:

Let me know if you want anything else. Please let me know where I can send the invoice for an additional educational mark-up. (AEM)

The first paragraph I barely understand, perhaps punctuation or grammar.

Regardless of other countries having been deemed as having more free markets, your initial comment seemed to imply that the government sets dealer vehicle prices, which they don't in any way.

Look, it's really simple. I don't like ADMs. I don't want to pay them and never have until this purchase. It's very strange times post COVID in the new and used automobile market as everyone knows.

That said, people don't need to justify their purchases prices to anyone. If you personally don't like market rate prices, you have a choice not to purchase. It just doesn't make sense to blame (or even complain that) "others" (who are dumb, uneducated, rich, not frugal, etc.) have affected you. Again it's a free market and the market is speaking. It's down right abdurd to expect others to place plans on hold for your financial benefit. Period, full stop.

Lastly, on a loosely related note, I'm all for direct market sales leaving out dealers. Unfortunately, I've heard there is some significant state by state regulation protecting automobile dealers. Tesla is doing OK despite such...

 

[vrtical]

Look, it's really simple. I don't like ADMs. I don't want to pay them and never have until this purchase. It's very strange times post COVID in the new and used automobile market as everyone knows.

I don't think most realize how screwed up the braptor swim lane is let alone navigate the price swing that has occurred in only 6 months and the vast number of different MSRP values on red window stickers to start. You could technically find a braptor that has been sitting that was scheduled earlier in the year and pay an ADM putting you ahead of the game lol. The rest of the bronco lineup are not soo much an issue and you definitely should not be paying an ADM unless you just plain lazy or don't want to spend the time to actually look which is most likely where a lot of that comes from. Again you could get a recent built braptor at MSRP, but it might be more then an older build with ADM... Dealers pushing ones that are MY23 year end builds with ADM, those will sit most likely if they have more then 5k ADM.

 

[2fast4u]

Well everyone is entitled to an opinion. Fortunately in this case there are not facts on this, only opinions. I'm not appreciating the labels or insinuations of idiotic/stupid.

My "mental gymnastics" are very carefully considered, as are all of my finances and investing. I will be able to sell my current 2016 4Runner for about $3k less than I paid. Even back then we had scarcity issues and I had to purchase it out of state, slightly used and at new price. Vehicles nearly always amount to "throwing money out the window" but an effective ADM in this case will be essentially recouped.

I'll repeat this with my Raptor.

Lastly, how about a friendly water that my, entirely self made finances are way better than yours? I'd call this the opposite of idiotic or stupid.

Raptors are not limited as well. I would not pay a ADM for a Raptor. Just like I would Not pay a AMD on a Shelby GT500 I know everyone has to do whats best for them. I'm just the guy that likes to get the best deal on anything I buy. If I can't I don't buy it.

 

[5GENIDN]

WOW! ROTFL!
All the economic education.... Millsian economics Yeah! It is not working in my favor Boo!
If you want to bitch about something how about ... why are people borrowing money to purchase a depreciable asset? WTH? Everyone's economics and situation are different. I paid a small ADM... so what.... does that mean anything to you... no... unless you are in the same geographical foot print as I am... no it did not... go beyond Millsian... lets get into regional economics. That is why you see some dealers with ADMs and some without. Different geographical locations with different supply and demand. But I am sure you all knew that. Could I have afforded this vehicle let alone the ADM 20 or even 15 years ago? no.... but I have saved, I do not purchase cars very often. I take care of my cars and they last me 15 to 20 years typically. I NEVER borrow money to purchase them. I pay a car payment to myself and build up the money to pay cash when the time comes. Should every one do the same as I do? yeah they probably should (in my opinion) but I also know rarely will they.

 

[TEAMSLO]

Waited until I found a dealer that would honor msrp. Found one but only on custom orders through Ford. Waited until I felt the time was right and ordering wouldn't take so long for delivery.

Just picked up mine last week, walked in with our own financing approval and got it done. But I was in a slightly different situation that some, having a very capable Jeep that I have no intentions in getting rid of.

 

[swamp2]

Raptors are not limited as well. I would not paid a ADM. Just like I would Not pay a AMD on a Shelby GT500 I know everyone has to do whats best for them. I'm just the guy that likes to get the best deal on anything I buy. If I can't I don't buy it.

Congrats if you got the Shelby at MSRP!

I'm also a very meticulous shopper and always try to get a highly optimized bang for the buck. In fact I emailed every dealer in the US I could get email addresses for (in an automated way). IIRC it was over 2000 dealers! My relatively small ADM, and 9 months of waiting just for an allocation is the best I could do, without being completely firm on $0 ADM.

 

[MadMan4BamaNATL]

Guys, I think this has become another healthy discussion, but it’s starting to go down a path where I do have a few points to add, but will refrain because the admins may delete it and close the thread. No, it’s not political, but more historical about the long term impacts of inflationary markets. One word used in modern times is “bubble”, but that’s actually kind of different.

Anyway, I get that those who paid ADM get defensive, but that works against the listening process which is sad, but it’s a side effect of inflationary markets as those with more means take advantage and that creates an undercurrent of anger which can spiral in a lot of negative pathways. This has been the point I’ve posted around.

I know I’m being vague, but feel it’s necessary. What I encourage is some study. Study the economic history of the last 150 years globally and what it caused. You can even go back another 100+ to capture the French Revolution. There are tons of books on the subject and some may seem boring, but will help you to prepare for what’s to come next if you’re curious on what comes next.

Let’s all not get angry and burn bridges between one another. There are members who I respect a great deal for years now that I see on both sides of this and it’s making me tone it down because I fear that context is becoming lost in the discussion.

There are some mark ups that we can’t avoid, such as food and at times shelter, but we can avoid it on cars unless there is a specific ”need” for a specific vehicle. For a wheeler, there are basically 2 options, but for anyone else, there are a ton. The crunch on the Bronco wasn’t from wheelers, but that’s ok. I made posts back in 2020 on the “consumers” joining in, but that it was important that the wheelers get rigs first because they set the tone that consumers want to emulate.

Consumers also tend to have more money because wheelers rather wheel than work at times unless they’re a mechanic or fabricator. Consumers jumped the line, paid the ADM, and created a volatile market for a lot of stuff that we’ll pay the penalty for for a while to come.

 

[Foxbody Barra]

I think paying an ADM is silly, however I’m not mad at you if you did. The real problem is the dealers are the only ones with access to inventory from the manufacturer. They can basically hold this inventory hostage for an ADM and the rest of us are basically forced to deal with it. It’s absolute bullshit and the dealers that partake in this nonsense should be shamed.
If we could also buy direct from the manufacturer I wouldn’t care. But we can’t and we are forced to deal with these scumbags.

 

[PrepVet]

I think paying an ADM is silly, however I’m not mad at you if you did. The real problem is the dealers are the only ones with access to inventory from the manufacturer. They can basically hold this inventory hostage for an ADM and the rest of us are basically forced to deal with it. It’s absolute bullshit and the dealers that partake in this nonsense should be shamed.
If we could also buy direct from the manufacturer I wouldn’t care. But we can’t and we are forced to deal with these scumbags.

You're hitting on a real issue there. But you are over simplifying it with just dealer markups.

Good for the dealer that can find the idiot to pay them a markup. However, you are correct, we shouldn't be forced to buy from them. I think almost everyone would rather order direct from the manufacturer.

HOWEVER, that will come with it's own pitfalls. The dozens of people on this site that have had to deal with the order constraints and delays and price changes by special ordering could/would be everyone that orders a car (from the manufacturer). At least de jour. Or you would be "forced/railroaded" into buying the "simplified" packages. Go to Tesla and order a car. It is simple, almost no questions or options to add. But you get what you get and what they want to offer.

Ford has started down that road, look at the limits now on how you cannot mix-n-match for FY24 like you could last year or more so even when the car was first released. Similar with the Maverick. I don't like that, but then again, maybe that is how the market is going. :iduuno:

I think removing the dealer as a requirement in the equation would be overall much more beneficial. I would greatly prefer it, but I also do not believe it will happen. DC won't give up their money from the lobby.

When you used to be able to go to a dealer and check out the same model car but with different packages and options and prices and then, metaphorically, go across the street and do the same with a competitor's similar car was nice. Or just decide that model or style is not for you and you could move down the line to the bigger/better/smaller/completely different car is a dealer only feature that is great. If the dealer just becomes an actual showroom, are they only going to keep the most desirable/expensive/best on the floor? I dunno, just a thought, I know I have done a lot of research on cars before I go look at them since I could use the internet to car shop. lol And I did know what I wanted (Mustang) before I went to a dealer and absolutely didn't' want (camaro) before I even stepped foot on the lot.

 

[Foxbody Barra]

Ford has started down that road, look at the limits now on how you cannot mix-n-match for FY24 like you could last year or more so even when the car was first released. Similar with the Maverick. I don't like that, but then again, maybe that is how the market is going. :iduuno:

This is how Honda sells cars. Certain models and trims have certain options. That’s it. It makes ordering very simple and finding what you want on the lot even easier. Trim and color, that’s all you need to know.

 

[5PC24]

Consumers jumped the line, paid the ADM, and created a volatile market for a lot of stuff that we’ll pay the penalty for for a while to come.

I really appreciate this call out here. Its not just cars, its not just ADM, there is an across the board increase in people wiling and able to pay more for items. Absolutely applicable to house prices, car prices, job wages, everything. People paying ADM are not making all of this happen nor will people not paying ADM make it all better.

If every single person worked someone cooperatively to drive the market from the consumer side then things may be different. I'd love to see someone effectively have every single person stop paying over for any item, but that is not going to happen. Everyone has their own comfort level and everyone has their own cost:benefit analysis. What works for one will not work for another, that's the world we're in.

Attacking anyone or insulting them is not an effective method for making a change, it just ensures division. Understanding multiple points of view and the benefits/drawbacks of each is more more useful for the long run.

 

[Fmuguira]

Best thing to stop ADM is competition…. So if Toyota hits a home run with the next 4RNR, if Jeep goes IFS, etc etc then Ford Dealers will have to cut their ADM or accept significantly less transactions / sales. ( think profits)

No matter the commodity or market there will always be a part of the general population willing ( not necessarily able) to pay inflated pricing. The credit industry has buried many of these poor souls in debt whether car, home, education related, etc.

 

[swamp2]

I'm a bit torn on your reply here @MadMan4BamaNATL . I greatly appreciate the sentiment to not burn bridges, but also strongly disagree with much you've posted. I've read it many times and don't think I've misunderstand the words nor the connotations.

it’s a side effect of inflationary markets as those with more means take advantage and that creates an undercurrent of anger

Its not really about inflation. We live in a massively stratified and wealth inequal country (and world). Nice things, especially vehicles, which in this case are essentially toys (no one needs a Bronco for work or for life, but they sure want them...) can cost a lot of money. Is it justifiable for those who can't afford one (or is morally unwilling to pay market price (aka ADM) to be angry at those who can/will? I say firmly, not. Save more, get a raise, move, get more education and a higher paying job, relax your morals, give yourself a one-time "hall pass", whatever. I can't afford a private jet but I'm not mad at those who can. I don't blame fellow mountain bikers for $90 bike tires. I despise the $15 burritos everywhere around me, but realize fellow burrito connoisseurs didn't make this price happen. When I don't want to spring for such a burrito I get a much less expensive Subway. It's just inflation and yes it sucks for just about all of us. Group X did not "do this" to group Y.

The crunch on the Bronco wasn’t from wheelers, but that’s ok. I made posts back in 2020 on the “consumers” joining in, but that it was important that the wheelers get rigs first because they set the tone that consumers want to emulate.

You can't be serious. People who use their recreationally focused vehicles in a certain way should be entitled to cut in line somehow and get said vehicles before others?

I can't even begin to list all of the ways this is wrong and unnecessary. What qualifies as a "wheeler" - how difficult of a trail you can complete, how many times a week or month you off-road, how much you post your adventures on social media, who gets to decide who is and who is not a "wheeler". Do you really think it is better for FMC or Dealers to have this kind of ambiguously preferential (and completely non-open market) treatment?

This is downright un-American and even borderline dystopian.

Consumers also tend to have more money because wheelers rather wheel than work at times unless they’re a mechanic or fabricator. Consumers jumped the line, paid the ADM, and created a volatile market for a lot of stuff that we’ll pay the penalty for for a while to come.

If only the world were so simple, "wealthy consumers" stand on this side and "poor wheelers" over on the other side. Do you really see such narrow and boolean slots for people? I certainly know and observe, that like the rest of society, there is no singular wealth level for wheelers.

It just keeps getting better, in this neat little boolean world you have "observed", wheelers don't pay ADMs and those darn "line jumpin' " consumers do? Such nonsense. I am a wheeler and I paid ADM (well I actually have not purchased yet, but do have a firm contract and build date). Why did I pay - crap in large part to have more fun sooner. More wheeling, more sooner, for all! I also have observed a lot of wheelers who also paid ADMs.

We should definitely apply much of this to the world of sports cars too right? Non professional track day enthusiasts should get their Ferrari's at less than market price and should jump ahead in line ahead of wealthy people who do not do track days (or heck at least an autocross per year). Goodbye sports car market...

The more I hear here, the more I hear child like whining because the Richie Rich's "took away" some folks ability to afford a toy (literally) and damnit - because I/we enjoy some activities one can do in such toys, I/we should be able to jump the line and should get discounts below market pricing.

Rich, here, literally.

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