Animosity toward IFS offroader

[Rick Astley]

So I haven't seen it here, but the big/main comparison I see between the Bronco and Wrangler is the axle setup. Lots of people saying the Bronco isn't a true offroader/as good as the Wrangler because of the IFS.

Never really understood that argument because last I checked just about every mainstream off road vehicle (quad or SxS) are IFS and IRS. Never see anyone complaining that they aren't offroad capable.

So why wouldn't a IFS vehicle like the Bronco be just as capable as a Wrangler? Does IFS not scale so well once vehicles get larger/heavier? Or is it all to do about nothing?

There was an excellent article written by @Hammerheadfistpunch a while back. I look forward to future articles from him

The thread started off well, but devolved into a measuring contest. the first few pages and the official article are solid though.

https://www.bronco6g.com/forum/thre...-in-having-independent-front-suspension.3859/

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[Amcap76]

Because let's face it. This shit is BAD ASS.

 

[indio22]

So I haven't seen it here, but the big/main comparison I see between the Bronco and Wrangler is the axle setup. Lots of people saying the Bronco isn't a true offroader/as good as the Wrangler because of the IFS.

Never really understood that argument because last I checked just about every mainstream off road vehicle (quad or SxS) are IFS and IRS. Never see anyone complaining that they aren't offroad capable.

So why wouldn't a IFS vehicle like the Bronco be just as capable as a Wrangler? Does IFS not scale so well once vehicles get larger/heavier? Or is it all to do about nothing?

A video posted to this site a few months back (will try and find the link) showed a Wrangler JLU and Bronco 4-door hitting the same portion of a trail, and the Bronco was lifting tires more than the JLU. I'll want to see more video comparisons to make a final judgement, but I think Bronco will have some compromises due to the IFS geometry.

Sometimes you will see articles talking about how IFS can have same travel and articulation as live axle, but then you see they are talking about race trucks with extra long control arms or special built buggies. That's not the Bronco design.

I'd take a live front axle over IFS, especially since I've driven live front axle Jeeps and Land Rovers for many years, and know the pavement issues people claim are overplayed. Some guy posted on this site about having to return a new Wrangler due to the front axle danger. I mean give me a break, lol.

I still think the new Bronco is a great rig, and Ford seems to have done a good job with the IFS.

 

[okbob]

Which suspension designs are scoring podiums at Baja 500 ?

Desert racing sure IFS, rock crawling no question SFA.

 

[MadMan4BamaNATL]

All you guys is so damn smart n shit.

 

[mds5917]

This is not a funny story. That right there is a gigantic waste of venison. This story is making me question so many things. At least get the backstrap or call your friend who isn't vegan and he will eat the venison.

Hey now, I'm not vegan - I just am not a fan of venison. And as I noted, it was a baby, so that was not a lot of meat. I wish I had someone then to take it away, but I fed it to nature instead.

 

[mds5917]

big deer fit in hefty bags too, they just take a little resizing... sorry you dgot a rabbit sized deer.... maybe deep fried?

It was about the size of a greyhound.

 

[IfIHMadeA2021Scout]

This is the big plus of a live axle in the Jeep.





Lets count the main components between a Bronco and a Wrangler:

Parts	Bronco	Wrangler
Control Arms	2 per side	2 per side
Ball joints	2 per side	2 per side
CVs or Ujoints on axle shaft	2 per side	1 per side
Tie rod ends	1 per side	2 per side
Drive Shaft w/ u-joints	1 (only rotating)	1 (moving up/down & rotating)
Steering box or Rack	1 Rack	1 Steering box
Sway bar	1	1
Axle/Differential assembly	1	1

You have two more CVs and two less tie rod ends on the IFS Bronco.

The biggest difference boils down to length of control arms. The live axle Wrangler has longer control arms, allowing the driveshaft to move in a larger arc with less binding on the U-joints/CVs.

The shorter upper and lower control arms on the IFS Bronco have a shorter arc and will be putting the CVs at risk of binding with less travel.

Looking forward to seeing some cool long travel kits for the Bronco soon.

Selective editing is always interesting. Here's the full post with emphasis added.

"For me it's about durability. Straight axle has less moving parts so fewer parts to wear out. An IFS has more parts, more bushings in places that affect alignment when they wear, are harder to replace, and are generally more prone to breakage."

I've noticed on our vehicles over the years the IFS rigs need more attention more often when used off road. They don't take the abuse the straight axle rigs do without being noticed by the driver and causing bad tire wear. We've replaced more parts on the Chevy and Ford IFS trucks than we did on the Jeeps. It's not that a straight axle link suspension does not wear, it's when it does, its static position of rest is not as noticeable. Que the death wobble argument. We fixed that with caster.

Replacing A-arms is infinitely more involved than replacing control arms. I guess the benefit is the ball joints get replaced at the same time.

I write as a long time recreation wheeler whose trucks also served as daily drivers most of the time. Not as a racer that will tear down and rebuild the vehicle on a regular basis.

My expectation is that if you could take a Jeep and Bronco, wheel the exact same trails, at the same speeds, at the same load, at the same same same... the Jeep would drive better longer. The Jeep body might fall to crap but the suspension would be in better shape.

All that and we're still getting the Bronco. If it sticks around long enough I expect it will get a straight axle swap with a three link with Panhard.

And for the TTB guys, yes we have one of those too. A couple of years ago we picked up a Dana 60 to swap in. We ended up keeping the TTB for the conversation value.

That's why I also wrote, "Pick your poison."

 

[mjohnso3]

So I haven't seen it here, but the big/main comparison I see between the Bronco and Wrangler is the axle setup. Lots of people saying the Bronco isn't a true offroader/as good as the Wrangler because of the IFS.

Never really understood that argument because last I checked just about every mainstream off road vehicle (quad or SxS) are IFS and IRS. Never see anyone complaining that they aren't offroad capable.

So why wouldn't a IFS vehicle like the Bronco be just as capable as a Wrangler? Does IFS not scale so well once vehicles get larger/heavier? Or is it all to do about nothing?

A stock Rubicon and Bronco Badlands have about the same amount of articulation, therefore advantage Bronco

 

[goatman]

Mustard Dog told me I needed IFS to go fast in the desert.

Now that's funny!

 

[Schoat333]

I believe the general reason for this is when the solid front axle is articulating, the tire that gets forced up in turn forces the other tire down into the ground since they are tied together. This allows for better traction when rock crawling.

With IFS since the suspension can move independently, it does not force droop like that.

IMO the Broncos IFS system appears to be really well made, and clearly they spent some time testing it. It will be more comfortable and better suited to 90% of the driving that will be done with them. We will just have to see how long the ball joints last in the extreme off-roading conditions as that is the typical failure point. Luckily, they will probably be easy to replace and upgrade.

 

[Tech Tim]

Which suspension designs are scoring podiums at Baja 500 ?

Stick one of those podium scoring rigs on a WeRock rock crawling course and it won't get very far.

Purpose built vehicles typically only do one thing real well.

Desert racing sure IFS, rock crawling no question SFA.

Yep. Hard core rock crawling a live axle will work better.

But I'll add that for weekend warrior trail use: Long travel IFS and you'll never want a live axle again.

Selective editing is always interesting. Here's the full post with emphasis added.

"For me it's about durability. Straight axle has less moving parts so fewer parts to wear out. An IFS has more parts, more bushings in places that affect alignment when they wear, are harder to replace, and are generally more prone to breakage."

I've noticed on our vehicles over the years the IFS rigs need more attention more often when used off road. They don't take the abuse the straight axle rigs do without being noticed by the driver and causing bad tire wear. We've replaced more parts on the Chevy and Ford IFS trucks than we did on the Jeeps. It's not that a straight axle link suspension does not wear, it's when it does, its static position of rest is not as noticeable. Que the death wobble argument. We fixed that with caster.

Replacing A-arms is infinitely more involved than replacing control arms. I guess the benefit is the ball joints get replaced at the same time.

I write as a long time recreation wheeler whose trucks also served as daily drivers most of the time. Not as a racer that will tear down and rebuild the vehicle on a regular basis.

My expectation is that if you could take a Jeep and Bronco, wheel the exact same trails, at the same speeds, at the same load, at the same same same... the Jeep would drive better longer. The Jeep body might fall to crap but the suspension would be in better shape.

All that and we're still getting the Bronco. If it sticks around long enough I expect it will get a straight axle swap with a three link with Panhard.

And for the TTB guys, yes we have one of those too. A couple of years ago we picked up a Dana 60 to swap in. We ended up keeping the TTB for the conversation value.

That's why I also wrote, "Pick your poison."

Selective editing works great to highlight a subject.

Didn't mean to discount your bushing concerns. Was going to list them separately in that list, but I figured that listing the controls arms would include the bushing count.

So let's count the bushings that affect alignment:

Bushings	Bronco	Wrangler
Upper A-arm/Control arm	2 per side	2 per side
Lower Control arm	2 per side	2 per side
Front Track bar	0	2
Sway bar	2 per side	2 per side

Am I missing any? Maybe bushings in the rack mount on the IFS?

Longevity? I put 25-30K miles on my long travel IFS 4Runner as a DD and a weekend wheeler. Have wheeled most of the trails in the PNW, including the rock trails. Wheeled Johnson Valley and some of the Hammer trails. Never replaced any of the bushings or ball joints, did replace one tie rod end that was beat pretty good.

**edited for clarity**

 

[OX1]

They use expensive parts they don't have to pay for out of their own pocket on vehicles that are just as unpleasant to drive as those death wobble jeeps.

More apples to cantaloupes comparisons please.

Yup, when there are "one ton" IFS swaps that hold up as well and 60 fronts and pick your poison rears (70, 10.25, 10.5, 14 bolt etc..), then we can talk. Pretty easy to drop those axles on the cheap, in a heep, classic bronco, FSB.

And yes near me, there isn't much else besides rock bashing. You don't make it "crawling" where I wheel. The vids of super traction areas, crawling are fun to watch, but they don't make that terrain near me.

I'm looking forward to the new bronco IFS, built up with better axles and maybe a select few other parts on 37-40's and see if it holds up to bouncing a tire up and down on the rocks at 25+ MPH wheel speeds (even when you are barely moving).

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