Damage while using winch on improperly installed Rough Country High Mount

[Tex]

I'm sorry I don't think I would like any winch that I needed to spool out under power. There is so much more risk in a situation like that IMO for things to go wrong. Spooling out under power generates heat, add that to now load on the winch when you actually need it and you might prematurely overheat it. Typically whenever the winch comes out it's because shit has gone sideways and time is of the essence. I don't want to wait for it to unspool even if it's fast when I can turn the clutch and run a line. Not to mention if your vehicle has lost power for some reason and you need to run an emergency line to hold it in place real quick (give or take a few inches maybe) you can free spool, hook up to something safe and lock it back in. Then if whatever traction you had gives way you at least have an emergency tether out there.

It's not ideal, but powering out won't generate nearly as much heat on an Apex 12K/Zeon style winch compared to the old drum or disk or even the early Warn cones from 10-20 years ago. That was one of the things I toyed around with while I was waiting on my mount, I got my thermal scope out after going through the entire line and back again to see if the drum or motor heated up appreciably. I could see some spots where heat was building but it was still cool to the touch. While I was doing that I timed how long it took to power spool vs free spool, and the difference was about a minute on flat ground (2.5min vs 1.5min)...wasn't trying to rush or win a competition, just how I would expect to walk a line out if I needed it to gauge just how much inconvenience I was bringing upon myself. It probably comes out in the wash if you're trying to climb up a hill for an anchor point, having to stop occasionally and get your footing and whatnot. Taking your time with a recovery can reduce the chance of something dangerous happening anyway, so no skin off my back. Matt's offroad powers out their line almost exclusively and I haven't seen them smoke a winch yet, but who knows what happens off camera. 4600 Broncos also had to power out due to their hidden winches, and they used them in some pretty tough conditions. With the setup I have, using a wireless remote and upfitter switch for power, the only thing I need to do is flip the license plate up, grab the line, and walk it to an anchor point.

Never been in a situation where I needed to tether a dead vehicle, I just stacked rocks or backed down. I guess it's possible to be in a situation where you can't do either but I'd be doing everything I could to avoid getting into that situation, and you still have the option of using straps or spare winch line, or even reaching in to move the lever with a stick. It's not totally inaccessible, it's just not convenient to do so.

Just a couple notes on mine relative to your experience:

I'm happy with the welds/finish on my V2. I used the fairlead that came with my Rugged Ridge winch, not the RC one, it has the same exterior profile. There are a few available with the same exterior profile as the RC but will cost $50 or so you shouldn't have to spend.

I made a tool to release the clutch by reaching down in front of the engine. My Rugged Ridge has a T handle which is easy to grab with the tool. Some winches have an angle clutch handle that would be harder to grab with the tool. To free spool the engine would have to be off, disengage, spool out, engage, start engine, then winch. Hopefully I won't forget a step when in the excitement/frustration of the stuck mode, slow and steady.

I wonder what happened with RC, because it seems like between when they made yours and when they made mine something went sideways at their shop. I didn't care too much about having to clean up the plate to fit the fairlead, but I did have to chisel some slag and chase the threads on the bash plate for the fairlead before I could use it. Some pretty amateur stuff LOL

I've toyed around with the idea of using a tool to reach the lever, but it seems too much of an inconvenience, as you outlined (and if you're running limb risers, that's another step because you can't pop the hood with them on). Even a hard mount option with u-joints and relocating the lever to the top of the radiator or battery still means I have to pop the hood. If I do anything, I'm going to remove the lever and adapt an angle grinder/drill gearbox or similar over it, then run a shaft to the outside of the winch tray or bumper. That way I can bolt up the original lever somewhere outside so it's accessible without tools or popping the hood. If I'm deep in mud or water and can't reach it, powering out is still an option. Considered using a geared motor on it instead of the lever, with a waterproof switch somewhere on the bumper or grill. I checked inside to see if I could do that directly on the winch but there's not enough room on the 2.7L to house a geared motor on top.

The other idea is to see if the Warn air clutch unit might bolt up:
https://www.amazon.com/WARN-71370-Air-Clutch-Kit/dp/B000OV6KAO

Or this, which comes with up to 18" of length:
https://www.vicedesign.ca/products/ram-warn-vr-evo-clutch-relocation-kit

From what I remember, the Apex isn't all that different from Warn winches as it's basically a reverse-engineered Warn anyway...so maybe if I'm lucky one of these will bolt up. It may even be possible to clock the clutch side like the Warn.

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[dgorsett]

It's not ideal, but powering out won't generate nearly as much heat on an Apex 12K/Zeon style winch compared to the old drum or disk or even the early Warn cones from 10-20 years ago. That was one of the things I toyed around with while I was waiting on my mount, I got my thermal scope out after going through the entire line and back again to see if the drum or motor heated up appreciably. I could see some spots where heat was building but it was still cool to the touch. While I was doing that I timed how long it took to power spool vs free spool, and the difference was about a minute on flat ground (2.5min vs 1.5min)...wasn't trying to rush or win a competition, just how I would expect to walk a line out if I needed it to gauge just how much inconvenience I was bringing upon myself. It probably comes out in the wash if you're trying to climb up a hill for an anchor point, having to stop occasionally and get your footing and whatnot. Taking your time with a recovery can reduce the chance of something dangerous happening anyway, so no skin off my back. Matt's offroad powers out their line almost exclusively and I haven't seen them smoke a winch yet, but who knows what happens off camera. 4600 Broncos also had to power out due to their hidden winches, and they used them in some pretty tough conditions. With the setup I have, using a wireless remote and upfitter switch for power, the only thing I need to do is flip the license plate up, grab the line, and walk it to an anchor point.

Never been in a situation where I needed to tether a dead vehicle, I just stacked rocks or backed down. I guess it's possible to be in a situation where you can't do either but I'd be doing everything I could to avoid getting into that situation, and you still have the option of using straps or spare winch line, or even reaching in to move the lever with a stick. It's not totally inaccessible, it's just not convenient to do so.



I wonder what happened with RC, because it seems like between when they made yours and when they made mine something went sideways at their shop. I didn't care too much about having to clean up the plate to fit the fairlead, but I did have to chisel some slag and chase the threads on the bash plate for the fairlead before I could use it. Some pretty amateur stuff LOL

I've toyed around with the idea of using a tool to reach the lever, but it seems too much of an inconvenience, as you outlined (and if you're running limb risers, that's another step because you can't pop the hood with them on). Even a hard mount option with u-joints and relocating the lever to the top of the radiator or battery still means I have to pop the hood. If I do anything, I'm going to remove the lever and adapt an angle grinder/drill gearbox or similar over it, then run a shaft to the outside of the winch tray or bumper. That way I can bolt up the original lever somewhere outside so it's accessible without tools or popping the hood. If I'm deep in mud or water and can't reach it, powering out is still an option. Considered using a geared motor on it instead of the lever, with a waterproof switch somewhere on the bumper or grill. I checked inside to see if I could do that directly on the winch but there's not enough room on the 2.7L to house a geared motor on top.

The other idea is to see if the Warn air clutch unit might bolt up:
https://www.amazon.com/WARN-71370-Air-Clutch-Kit/dp/B000OV6KAO

Or this, which comes with up to 18" of length:
https://www.vicedesign.ca/products/ram-warn-vr-evo-clutch-relocation-kit

From what I remember, the Apex isn't all that different from Warn winches as it's basically a reverse-engineered Warn anyway...so maybe if I'm lucky one of these will bolt up. It may even be possible to clock the clutch side like the Warn.

Not to highjack Tricky's thread, but that clutch relo kit looks interesting. By clocking 90 degrees you could come out near the fairlead..

 

[Tricky Dick]

Not to highjack Tricky's thread, but that clutch relo kit looks interesting. By clocking 90 degrees you could come out near the fairlead..

Please do, I'll change the title to:

winch clutch relocation kit discussion (definitely not any Tricky dumbassery in here)

 

[swooshdave]

I wonder what happened with RC, because it seems like between when they made yours and when they made mine something went sideways at their shop. I didn't care too much about having to clean up the plate to fit the fairlead, but I did have to chisel some slag and chase the threads on the bash plate for the fairlead before I could use it. Some pretty amateur stuff LOL

My guess is that prototyping and early production was in the US and then they sent it overseas and said "Fruck it".

 

[V1Rotate]

I wonder what happened with RC, because it seems like between when they made yours and when they made mine something went sideways at their shop. I didn't care too much about having to clean up the plate to fit the fairlead, but I did have to chisel some slag and chase the threads on the bash plate for the fairlead before I could use it. Some pretty amateur stuff LOL

I Ordered/received mine within the last 3 or so weeks and was expecting to have to do the usual rust country touchup but was actually really surprised at how clean the faces and welds were and didn’t have any goofy threads

 

[MillerAndCheeto]

good assumption - most definitely the upper limits.....all the way up

Here's my calc's and assumptions:

• 10,000 pounds of force, full winch stall-out
• Applied ~9" above centerline and horizontal ( just measured my RC high mount install)
• Frame is rectangular tubing, 2.5" wide and 3.75" high and 3/16" thick (just measured as best I could, so should be pretty close)
• 90,000 in-lb of torque applied around the centerline

Resulting tensile/compressive forces are ~41,000 psi or 275 MPa. Within the 550 MPa tensile and 400 compressive assumed maximum.

Now more than likely you weren't at full winch stall-out. A more likely maximum of 4,000 lb provides 16,500 psi or 113 MPa. Well within specs.

So @Tricky Dick you probably don't need to bother looking at your frame. Unless you want to anyway for peace of mind!

 

[Tricky Dick]

Here's my calc's and assumptions:

• 10,000 pounds of force, full winch stall-out
• Applied ~9" above centerline and horizontal ( just measured my RC high mount install)
• Frame is rectangular tubing, 2.5" wide and 3.75" high and 3/16" thick (just measured as best I could, so should be pretty close)
• 90,000 in-lb of torque applied around the centerline

Resulting tensile/compressive forces are ~41,000 psi or 275 MPa. Within the 550 MPa tensile and 400 compressive assumed maximum.

Now more than likely you weren't at full winch stall-out. A more likely maximum of 4,000 lb provides 16,500 psi or 113 MPa. Well within specs.

So @Tricky Dick you probably don't need to bother looking at your frame. Unless you want to anyway for peace of mind!

I love the math.

 

[emulous74]

From what I read, the Warn winch with power out doesn’t fit the RC Hidden Winch.

 

[Tricky Dick]

Well naturally I forgot my angle finder at work, but it's hardly needed to see what's going on. The tops of the plates are obviously pulled out and the paint is cracking.

 

[MillerAndCheeto]

Well naturally I forgot my angle finder at work, but it's hardly needed to see what's going on. The tops of the plates are obviously pulled out and the paint is cracking.

I wonder if those spacers installed would have led to the same result....

 

[shawn6107]

Well naturally I forgot my angle finder at work, but it's hardly needed to see what's going on. The tops of the plates are obviously pulled out and the paint is cracking.

I bet when I pull my bumper off mine looks just like it.

 

[Tex]

Well naturally I forgot my angle finder at work, but it's hardly needed to see what's going on. The tops of the plates are obviously pulled out and the paint is cracking.

This thread has been such a rollercoaster of emotions

 

[Grumpy]

So I read through the whole thread and my impression before I started reading is Rough Country is like Harbor Freight of the 4wd world. Don't get me wrong, it has it's place and I have bought products from them.

In my experience with R/C over the past 2 decade's or more has been very positive. I've used their products on a few Bronco builds to include my 22. So far on my 22 I've installed their front/rear bumpers, side steps, 5" lift, hood struts, seat covers, LED's, tailgate reinforcement kit, frame horn towing attachments and now awaiting arrival of their hidden winch mount and 12k winch. Of all that I've had no issues nor quality concerns. Parts fit and finish has been great with no need for return, warranty claims. This is only my opinion and experience over many years. I would most definitely not compare R/C to HF of the 4x4 accessory world.

 

[Tricky Dick]

This thread has been such a rollercoaster of emotions

Might be a lesson here in releasing findings after the investigation is fully complete....

So at this point I'm thinking I'm going to try to beat the face plates back to straight. It's only 1/8" or so so it should beat fairly easily. The nut plate even tried to pull through, it's all cockeyed.

 

[Tricky Dick]

I wonder if those spacers installed would have led to the same result....

We need Shawn's help on that one. Poke poke.

I bet when I pull my bumper off mine looks just like it.

Hop to it man, we need to know!

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