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YEGDriver

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I would rather have the a permanent top with a large sunroof, rather then wait 2-3yrs for the removable one. How many people would actually remove the back portion of the roof anyway. If you want to drive around naked go with the soft top.
While I'd not want a sunroof, I'd accept if just the front two panels came off, and the rear clamshell was attached to the body. Give the rear section the gunner hatch, and the removable windows, and I'd be happy. Now I realize that's not what most people would want. But it would make me happy. I'll never get what I want, but I can dream.
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I wouldn’t expect to see any chairs thrown. Ford owns the patent and ultimately the blame for this. Webasto is a scape goat.
I probably should've put it as **prepares to dodge any chairs thrown by engineers**. 😁
 

Headsong

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As much as I DO NOT want to wade into this cesspool of anger and resentment, I agree and want to echo what Jim said.

Webasto, in an objective perspective, knows how to do this stuff. It's one of the things they already do, successfully, for other vehicles. Tops is kinda their thing (at least this specific arm of the corporation).

I think the truth is somewhere among all of the smoke, mirrors, and shrapnel.
Ford wanted to design a lighter, different type of top that the JPs run.
They came up with what they thought was a winner, contracted the work.
Webasto is held to their design, their specs, their pricing, their materials.

WE don't know how this all shook out prior, or how/why it ultimately is failing.

Did Webasto come to the table and try and steer the design toward something they knew they could do, only to be stonewalled?
Were they eventually forced to "make it work" because the design "Is sound and works on 3-d modeling"?
Did they execute the intended processes to fulfill the specs and drawings, provided the design is sound?
Or is everything sound and solid and they just flat-out fail?
Maybe someone in the forum knows for sure.
The rest of us simply don't and can only speculate.

None of this makes any of it right, or easier. For us or for Ford, or even Webasto. Or even the new supplier.
Just some food for thought and I think Jim is on the right track here, prompting us to take a step back and at least entertain it may not be Webasto's fail 100%. Or it very well may be.

Either way, I'm hoping with the new supplier finds whatever the chink in the armor was, that it was identified and will be fixed.
This is way too well thought out and thoughtful as well, for this forum.
 

Clearwater native

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So are they still going to make MIC tops for the 2dr Bronco ???
 

GoldenKnight

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So are they still going to make MIC tops for the 2dr Bronco ???
They're still making MIC tops for all Broncos. That's all Webasto will make now.

Mod top will come from someone else. Anyone know who got it?
 

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DUSTYcazOREGON

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As much as I DO NOT want to wade into this cesspool of anger and resentment, I agree and want to echo what Jim said.

Webasto, in an objective perspective, knows how to do this stuff. It's one of the things they already do, successfully, for other vehicles. Tops is kinda their thing (at least this specific arm of the corporation).

I think the truth is somewhere among all of the smoke, mirrors, and shrapnel.
Ford wanted to design a lighter, different type of top that the JPs run.
They came up with what they thought was a winner, contracted the work.
Webasto is held to their design, their specs, their pricing, their materials.

WE don't know how this all shook out prior, or how/why it ultimately is failing.

Did Webasto come to the table and try and steer the design toward something they knew they could do, only to be stonewalled?
Were they eventually forced to "make it work" because the design "Is sound and works on 3-d modeling"?
Did they execute the intended processes to fulfill the specs and drawings, provided the design is sound?
Or is everything sound and solid and they just flat-out fail?
Maybe someone in the forum knows for sure.
The rest of us simply don't and can only speculate.

None of this makes any of it right, or easier. For us or for Ford, or even Webasto. Or even the new supplier.
Just some food for thought and I think Jim is on the right track here, prompting us to take a step back and at least entertain it may not be Webasto's fail 100%. Or it very well may be.

Either way, I'm hoping with the new supplier finds whatever the chink in the armor was, that it was identified and will be fixed.
A lot of logic in what you have said. Webasto is a German Company. The Germans have a lot of pride in what they produce and are dedicated hard workers. Who knows what has happened here....maybe some day we will find out. I just pray my MIC has no issues. I am a perfectionist when it comes to my vehicles....I won't settle for anything less. A lifetime warranty on the MIC top for original owners of 2021/2022 mdls could soften this blow.
 

rdass623

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Who said anything about Ford building their own tops? Contracting things like this out is smart business.

What you said is a company building tops having to pay a ton of taxes which is a lie; they hardly pay any taxes on capital expenditures since that is basically economic development and a source of jobs and new payroll taxes. A supplier hardly pays taxes on anything growth related. Again, scale and deliverables within a timeframe are the challenges that come with many micro challenges within.

Companies don't pay taxes, YOU DO.

I'm an Economist for a large private investment firm. I sort of deal with this topic daily, including as I take a break to type this reply to you.

Please don't spread misinformation about our economy, it's confusing to people as is.
ok, you know best... thank you for my new found degree in economics..
 

rdass623

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Dude, taxes are almost nothing for large corporations, stop carrying water for guys much richer than you who don't need your help.

Taxes are pretty bad for small companies, mainly because they don't have/haven't made much money yet.

Any capital expenditures on the building or acquisition of a factory is highly subsidized by state, local, and at times the federal government. These subsidies are usually in the form of grants, meaning not to be repaid.

Further, the securing of any contract with a very large Fortune 50 corp like Ford would bring all sorts of investors to help further defray costs.

If any company can show an ability to scale a project like this with a calendar for deliverables and pass the reference review process, they can get this contract or any other like it. The key in what I just wrote is "scale". So, if you have the engineers with the proper expertise (Webasto), sure. Starting from nothing is difficult but its due to scale not taxes which corporations hardly pay.

Keep your dog whistles out of here particularly when you're just making shit up.
read my original post. you missed the whole point. my guess is your economics degree may have missed the part on business management. whether you consider a tax significant and a cfo of a corporation does is all purely speculative on both points of view. my point is there are many factors which are taken into consideration before a company will consider constructing the infrastructure required to self produce a component or to sub contract it out. i did not say taxes were the only reason. i did list them as one reason. i too understand the old saying business does not pay tax, the consumer does... no shit sherlock. but business must control costs in order to sell a product the consumer is willing to pay for.

and what dog whistles are you talking about? i was simply stating what are factors which probably came under consideration... thank you for your input as i am sure this forum is hugely formative on us economic policy you pompous ass.

taxes are bad for all companies... small or large. percentage wise small business tends to carry a larger burden. but having owned a business for 15 years, i am fully aware no expense is inconsequential. but i guess your economics degree left that part out.
 

MadMan4BamaNATL

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read my original post. you missed the whole point. my guess is your economics degree may have missed the part on business management. whether you consider a tax significant and a cfo of a corporation does is all purely speculative on both points of view. my point is there are many factors which are taken into consideration before a company will consider constructing the infrastructure required to self produce a component or to sub contract it out. i did not say taxes were the only reason. i did list them as one reason. i too understand the old saying business does not pay tax, the consumer does... no shit sherlock. but business must control costs in order to sell a product the consumer is willing to pay for.

and what dog whistles are you talking about? i was simply stating what are factors which probably came under consideration... thank you for your input as i am sure this forum is hugely formative on us economic policy you pompous ass.

taxes are bad for all companies... small or large. percentage wise small business tends to carry a larger burden. but having owned a business for 15 years, i am fully aware no expense is inconsequential. but i guess your economics degree left that part out.
I was only addressing your statement on taxes. I was not/am not questioning your knowledge of business or other parts of your statement. Taxes are necessary (you do want a military and police and fire don't you?), but that taxes are nothing for corporations. Taxes are harder on people like us since most corporations don't pay much in taxes these days. So the only reason other companies aren't suppliers for tops for vehicles center around the barriers to entry into that market which I covered in my posts.

Businesses try to sell certain lies like that taxes are a burden on them; they're not. Or, that people (Americans) earn/want too much money (a lie).

Corporate profits have never been higher. Earned income is largely stagnant, inflation is rising fast, and debt is increasing as well.
 

thenewjs

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We turned out many new products during WWII in short order. Including the JEEP.
 

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While I'd not want a sunroof, I'd accept if just the front two panels came off, and the rear clamshell was attached to the body. Give the rear section the gunner hatch, and the removable windows, and I'd be happy. Now I realize that's not what most people would want. But it would make me happy. I'll never get what I want, but I can dream.
I'm with you on the MOD top, it's what I wanted from the beginning, my plan was always have it painted the body color, now at least if I believe FORD, they will do it for me, all I have to do is wait for a MY23. I thinking 2 scenarios might happen: 1) MOD tops are available starting MY23, or 2) I get a FORD love letter stating how they appreciate my patience and now that the MY23 options are available, sadly the MOD top is not one of them.
 

MaverickMan

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We turned out many new products during WWII in short order. Including the JEEP.
Initial wartime production quality would barely meet my standards, much less the folks here on 6g. :ROFLMAO: In the classic military jeep community there is all kinds of little odditites that are coveted if you found the one that they put the part on upside down and shipped it etc.
 

rdass623

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I was only addressing your statement on taxes. I was not/am not questioning your knowledge of business or other parts of your statement. Taxes are necessary (you do want a military and police and fire don't you?), but that taxes are nothing for corporations. Taxes are harder on people like us since most corporations don't pay much in taxes these days. So the only reason other companies aren't suppliers for tops for vehicles center around the barriers to entry into that market which I covered in my posts.

Businesses try to sell certain lies like that taxes are a burden on them; they're not. Or, that people (Americans) earn/want too much money (a lie).

Corporate profits have never been higher. Earned income is largely stagnant, inflation is rising fast, and debt is increasing as well.
but taxes are a consideration on the bottom line. and when you take into account taxes, pensions for the additional employees, the cost of building and maintaining the facility, the amount of payoffs to local officials for the zoning variances, these are all factors albeit not an exhaustive list in the cost benefit analyses. when webasto says they can make the tops to spec, for $ 15.00 (example not actual number) less per unit than it would ultimately cost ford, webasto gets the contract.. much like the tiawanese semiconductor producer who has all but eliminated production of the f-250. the CBA was the ultimate decider. some decisions are good and some are bad, luck has it's hand in this also.
 

KnoxGnater

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I wouldn’t expect to see any chairs thrown. Ford owns the patent and ultimately the blame for this. Webasto is a scape goat.
We all know most Engineers can't throw a chair. You may have some more animated mumbling and shoe scuffing though.

How do you know when you've met an outgoing Engineer? They stare at YOUR shoes when they talk.

......everybody calm down, I am one. :)
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