Trail Recon: 4xe Vs. Bronco... We all know which is better

[WuNgUn]

I've never understood how hydrogen could be better then battery or ICE. It's not as if we can drill into the massive pure hydrogen reserves laying around somewhere. Hydrogen requires a ton of energy to produce, then you have to ship it which is inefficient and requires pipes that won't be corroded by the hydrogen, finally the compression ratios used to store hydrogen in are insanely high. 10k psi in the case of the Toyota Mirai. Average deep ocean pressures are 3k to 9k with the Mariana trench winning the prize at 15k.

Definitely not something for mass consumer use. A lot of city transit buses are hydrogen hybrid. I think they combust it though, not a fuel cell like the Toyota

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[21BL2DR]

But with a jeep you might get a duck………..

 

[Mattwings]

I've never understood how hydrogen could be better then battery or ICE. It's not as if we can drill into the massive pure hydrogen reserves laying around somewhere. Hydrogen requires a ton of energy to produce, then you have to ship it which is inefficient and requires pipes that won't be corroded by the hydrogen, finally the compression ratios used to store hydrogen in are insanely high. 10k psi in the case of the Toyota Mirai. Average deep ocean pressures are 3k to 9k with the Mariana trench winning the prize at 15k.

Current state it doesn't make sense, but batteries, in particular, as a storage device for energy and range (to solve for both US and worldwide issues) currently requires such large batteries that it is really not feasible to replace fossil fuels with electricity. Batteries also loose electricity at a relatively fast rate. That waste nets EVs even worse performance as a true replacement for fossil fuels, in addition to the production source of the electricity.

One of the simplest explanations I have read- " here, in very simple(-istic) terms, are the two numbers that explain why the transportation industry’s interest in hydrogen is once again bubbling. A modern car battery can store 250 watt-hours of energy for every kilogram of lithium-ion. A kilogram of hydrogen, meanwhile, has 33,200 of those watt-hour things per kilo. No, that’s not a mistake. Yes, hydrogen is more than 100 times as energy-dense as a li-ion battery".

That's on top of the raw materials in batteries, which by all accounts are not available to meet any of the current projections of EV production for the near term (2030) and has no widely adopted plan for storage or disposal of the used battery materials.

Either way, net, a fully electric vehicle fleet is neither possible or likely to make much difference in emissions without radical improvements in electric production, transmission, storage, battery construction and disposal. Lot's of experimentation and technology development between now and a "zero emissions" future!

 

[blsbikes2]

My wife has a 1.25 mile commute. Every day it kills me that she has to start and run cold cycle, to and from work. I am not sure what post pandemic driving is shaping up to look like, but that short commute during the week, range anxiety/weekend use was a big barrier to entry for consumers for pure electric. My wife will be looking at a plug in hybrid (or full EV) in her next vehicle. My personal opinion, informed by a non-engineers review of several engineering studies is, the full electric is the most "dead end" design. Net, energy and emissions, it just doesn't make sense without nuclear. As we continue to try and get off fossil fuels, the process and distribution of electric power and the lack of reliable and abundant alternatives to gas and oil just don't add up. Hydrogen? Probably the more likely solution currently.

Folowed (invested) in the green energy sector for years. It pretty much went nowhere and is still mostly going nowhere. Hydrogen has to be made and is a pain to store. Natural Gas is easier in that the infrastructure for it already exits to some degree. Solar and wind do work just fine, but yes, you need something else too. Nuclear could work but they keep building these huge old tech reactors. There are so many better and smaller alternatives. Gas and oil will be running the world at least to 2050.

 

[Jdc]

One of the simplest explanations I have read- " here, in very simple(-istic) terms, are the two numbers that explain why the transportation industry’s interest in hydrogen is once again bubbling. A modern car battery can store 250 watt-hours of energy for every kilogram of lithium-ion. A kilogram of hydrogen, meanwhile, has 33,200 of those watt-hour things per kilo. No, that’s not a mistake. Yes, hydrogen is more than 100 times as energy-dense as a li-ion battery".

That's on top of the raw materials in batteries, which by all accounts are not available to meet any of the current projections of EV production for the near term (2030) and has no widely adopted plan for storage or disposal of the used battery materials.

Either way, net, a fully electric vehicle fleet is neither possible or likely to make much difference in emissions without radical improvements in electric production, transmission, storage, battery construction and disposal. Lot's of experimentation and technology development between now and a "zero emissions" future!

1. 33kW per kilogram sounds impressive vs .25KW until you factor in the tank size. The Toyota Mirai can only carry 5 kilograms in it's tank, or 165Kw. The numbers get worse when you consider efficiency of a hydrogen fuel cell is around 60% meaning you realistically you have 165*.6 = 99KW. Which is much smaller than many of the batteries in electric cars.
2. 2. A hydrogen fleet would require more energy to create than a BEV fleet, because hydrogen production is usually done one of two ways:
   1. Electrolysis. Produce electricity, and then use that electricity to produce hydrogen...to then put in a fuel cell to produce electricity..
   2. Gas reforming. Using extremely high temperature steam and natural https://www.energy.gov/eere/fuelcells/hydrogen-production-natural-gas-reforming
   3. Bonus: it's been suggested that nuclear power could be used in a hight temperature process https://www.energy.gov/ne/articles/...egawatt nuclear,produced in the United States.

 

[pfd799]

Looks like these guys are learning what thousands of Europeans have already found out - that plugin hybrids are a neither fish nor fowl dead end in automotive design concepts. They’re supposed to marry the convenience of ICE with the environmental friendliness of EV. But aside from a very specific scenario - daily overnight charging with a short commute that fits a very limited range window - plugins are a hopelessly compromised package combining all the disadvantages of ICE and EV. The weight and complexity of carrying two separate powertrains independently capable of running the car means that outside of the optimal use case, they are more expensive/less reliable/burn more fuel than an ICE while having paltry range compared to a pure EV. As soon as legislators close the overstated mpg loophole on these things they will go the way of the Wankel. The future of passenger cars will be in pure EVs and mild hybrids which plug gaps in ICE efficiency without the weight or complexity of a complete parallel drivetrain. The real world 35 mpg of a base Maverick is a great example of what a hybrid truck can achieve when you don’t overthink it.

If you consider how much of the country lives in densely populated areas that “very specific scenario” applies to lots of people, PHEVs aren’t going anywhere.

 

[da_jokker]

Brad's videos have been pretty subjective on the Bronco, especially since he is a huge Jeep guy and always has been. Quite impressed that he is as non-biased as he is. You can tell, however, that he is not "committed" to the Bronco... No lighting, winch etc... that you see on his other rigs. Though I don't blame him, as he is a Jeep guy, it will be interesting to see what he does with it longer term.

Maybe he's waiting to see if his engine blows

 

[Doorsoff4ever]

I am not entirely sure that PHEV technology and advantages are being fairly represented in the video? There doesn't appear to have been a full hybrid range test compared to the bronco. Let me explain: we have a 2020 Volvo XC90 PHEV that gets that maverick mileage in hybrid and weighs over 2,000 pounds more than a Maverick. It's not like after the all-electric range it is only an ICE power plant unless you turn off the electric driveline on purpose, but why would you ever want to. These vehicles have battery save or hold mode that essentially make them a ICE vehicle on demand, have an electric only short range mode that make them an EV on demand, and best of both worlds mode: HYBRID, that uses both power plants efficiently and very effectively after the all electric battery is depleted. Honestly though, the biggest PHEV perk of our Volvo mom wagon is using both powerplants at the same time to drop a 0-60 time in the low 5 seconds in a 5k pound luxury mom wagon . With a 2L 4 banger that has both a supercharger AND a turbocharger AND an electric rear axle (essentially electric boost), our fat bodied wagon will push you into the seat with 400+hp and it will do it for 500 miles before having to go fill up. It's the shiznit for blasting to and from work every day. If there was a hybrid PHEV Bronco that could post that kind of hybrid range and combined HP why wouldn't you get it? The bronco is already a heavy beast. I can't imagine some chassis level weight really destroying the offroad performance unless you plan to mudbog your Bronco to and from work. If that'sthe case buy a 2dr bronco on 40s, and I wish you good luck and godspeed.

 

[JerryC]

I'll take a few guesses why the hybrid system did not help the Jeep on this trip.
Lowered tire pressure increased the torque and to turn the wheels either eating up battery power and/or forcing the Ice to kick in.
4wd, same as above.
Driving in loose soil, ditto.

Where I could see the hybrid helping is slow speed crawling with a group where a good amount of time is waiting. Then the ice can shut off and the battery can still run the accessories (AC/heat) and when the ice is idling it can charge the battery.

 

[Zombienation]

Currently have a 4xe, race red bronco on order so I have some insight.

The power is awesome but can be jerky at first if the ICE isn’t warmed up, after it’s great

Full electric not ideal in north east winters due to FORM but still averaged 19mpg over 400 miles all in town driving and still had the electric boost for the full 375hp 470tq so basically gas with extra power.

With the gas prices being insane it is no issue for me running full electric commuting to work and back and charging overnight so for my situation the 4xe is fantastic plus the interior and audio are really nice.

it isn’t for everyone and that is true for most phev vehicles but for some it’s awesome.

 

[West1]

Motions in Limine while off roading??? F that!

I thought the same thing.

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