The IFS vs SFA Thread

[Nanook]

The Bronco can establish off road credit without crawling over big rocks slowly. The Raptor has tons of off road credibility.

If any mfg builds a midsize off-road SUV it is going to get compared directly to the Wrangler for its off-road credibility.
The f150 raptor has tons of off-road credibility because it followed the successful blueprint for its intended purpose being a long-ish travel, powerful, high speed desert runner.
The Bronco being short wheel base and (if using Ranger Raptor specs) considerably less wheel travel doesn’t earn the same credibility because just those 2 combined are opposing to a high speed desert runner.
Now we know if the Raptor Bronco is top trim, it won’t be the volume seller, but the volume sellers will only be successful if there is a desirable image of credibility.
If that is Fords goal of a raptor bronco, they have a good chance of achieving it, I’m sure it will outperform the Wrangler in a desert style comparison and any other current midsize SUV competition.
But like Stampede pointed out, if that’s your intention, you’re better off with the similarly priced (assumption) longer wheelbase Ranger Raptor or the solid financial decision F150 Raptor.
An SFA option makes sense, it’s scary going head to head with Jeep but without a SFA model it’s already a forfeit.
Nobody has been successful debating it because there isn’t any proof of a mfg beating the Wrangler in sales since the release of the 4dr.

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[Carolina Jim]

If Bronco doesn't have the "cred" to begin with, the only thing it's going to sell is more Wranglers.

it’s scary going head to head with Jeep but without a SFA model it’s already a forfeit.

Image, envy, cred, and magazine covers gets you to a 'short list', and likely a dealer visit. From there many many dynamics influence final selection - and I'm guessing Bronco will do quite well in a majority of them.

There's lottsa market segments for Bronco to draw from:

• 17+ million annual vehicle sales in US - only 1.4% of which are Wranglers
• How many owners are ready to come out of Wranglers and KNOW for certain they don't rock crawl?
• Each & every vehicle design is going to turn some folks 'on' and alienate others. Just look at cybertruck.
• Consider Hackett's recent statement of wanting to be an industry disruptor by allowing more option customization
• We don't even know Ford's head to head pricing strategy yet

 

[BroncoMike]

• How many owners are ready to come out of Wranglers and KNOW for certain they don't rock crawl?

Jeep, and more intensively Wrangler, is nothing short of a cult. It got that way by being superior to competitors in a performance aspect that most of us agree is used only by a very small percentage of owners.

That level of irrationality cannot be combatted with common sense - a better ride, better economy, better interior comfort is the antithesis of what Wrangler owners want. Rough ride, discomfort, and unenviable economy are "features" to Jeep owners; a badge of suffering and martyrdom, the price of owning the most capable production American 4x4 on the market. Ever seen the sticker on some Wranglers, "It's a Jeep thing, you wouldn't understand"? That's the level of fanaticism they have, and they embrace it.

Wrangler owners don't accidentally stumble into ownership of that marque, they have yearned for it in their souls. Jeep sells the rugged American outdoorsman/woman image, and does it better than anyone else. It has become the extension of the owner's projected idyllic persona, and few will surrender and admit they are really common suburbanites better served by a Kia Soul. Unless the Bronco has superior capability in the things that matter to each individual consumer, they're not swapping seats. Build a more capable machine and not only will the few who legitimately enjoy their vehicles near their full potential become converts, the suburban commandos will also follow.

 

[OX1]

Can someone direct me the stoutest factory IFS ever made for offroad use?
Thinking H1, but maybe it was the Pinzgauer.

https://silodrome.com/steyr-daimler-puch-pinzgauer/

Heck it could be the newest Raptor, since those have way more power then the 2 above.

 

[Randy92Fox]

Wrangler owners don't accidentally stumble into ownership of that marque, they have yearned for it in their souls.

Guarantee most of the teenage girls driving them to high school can't identify the location of either differential on. They drive them because the top comes off and they look cool.

 

[Carolina Jim]

Jeep, and more intensively Wrangler, is nothing short of a cult.

I suspect ALL your points are Spot On.

But in any business, you've gotta have a value proposition. You either clone Wrangler & compete on price, service, or some other dynamic...in which case Wrangler still owns tradition, image, and legend. Or you offer a little more elbow room, smoother street ride, a different 'look', and who knows on price. If I was CEO, I'd opt for plan #2

 

[phillyfx4]

"Rough ride, discomfort, and unenviable economy are "features" to Jeep owners; a badge of suffering and martyrdom, the price of owning the most capable production American 4x4 on the market. Ever seen the sticker on some Wranglers, "It's a Jeep thing, you wouldn't understand"? That's the level of fanaticism they have, and they embrace it."

not me …..

 

[Nanook]

I suspect ALL your points are Spot On.

But in any business, you've gotta have a value proposition. You either clone Wrangler & compete on price, service, or some other dynamic...in which case Wrangler still owns tradition, image, and legend. Or you offer a little more elbow room, smoother street ride, a different 'look', and who knows on price. If I was CEO, I'd opt for plan #2

Which is why you build the baby bronco and not hinder your brand icon’s off-road capability.
There’s 1 point that keeps getting reiterated about the large majority of future bronco owners and wrangler owners not using their vehicle to its max capability...ok, yes but that image of capability leads to its desirability.
The Baby Bronco exists for those that aren’t going to modify their vehicles beyond tires, will get better mpg than the Bronco and Wrangler and will probably handle the rally test better than both because a corolla did.
The Bronco is supposed to be an off-roader first, true to its roots and 1 that eventually evolved into a daily driver. As the brand image, off-road capability and durability need to be #1.
That can’t occur if you have a couple vehicles in your own portfolio that are equally equipped for the same task and better performing (excluding the 2dr SWB Bronco which we all know will not be the volume leader).
Point is don’t dumb down the icon so it can be marginally better off-road than every competitor other than Wrangler.
After all 2nd place is the just the first loser.

 

[Carolina Jim]

After all 2nd place is the just the first loser.

Good points all. All the more true if Bronco's IFS is run of the mill. Teocali seems to imply its being designed on Mount Olympus...the likes of which mere mortals have never laid eyes on.

I admit to being easy. Ford pretty much had me at the 'tarp'...as I'm looking for the SWB plus hot looks.

 

[Stampede.Offroad]

Guarantee most of the teenage girls driving them to high school can't identify the location of either differential on. They drive them because the top comes off and they look cool.

...
But in any business, you've gotta have a value proposition. ... you offer a little more elbow room, smoother street ride, a different 'look', and who knows on price. If I was CEO, I'd opt for plan #2

In your estimation, would either of those vehicles plausibly "reclaim our rightful place as the off-road vehicle leader"?

 

[Carolina Jim]

In your estimation, would either of those vehicles plausibly "reclaim our rightful place as the off-road vehicle leader"?

Hell no. But that's the kind of stuff you say at the weigh-in for a heavy-weight boxing match....Or when you're rolling out a new vehicle to compete with a legend.

 

[Tslater1989]

SFA is all but capable of being on par with typical IFS Suv ride comfort. BUT IFS is better for road use in a vast majority of circumstances. I hate to disagree with SFA junkies, but its true. The only thing tied to both wheels is a sway bar. This allows for a better ride quality with less bobbing from side to side and feeling the bumps. A good example. If you go over a speed bump with an f150. Drivers side on passenger off. The front just soaks it up. The rear feels like the truck is being kicked to the passenger side. I dont mind because I drive large vehicles on a regular basis. My wife likes the smoothness of her explorer which is independent all the way around. Take all of this with a grain of salt though. Living in michigan, we have terrible roads. Voted one of the worst in the country.
All that being said. Off road credentials sell jeeps. Even if they barely touch a gravel road. People like the image of the "go anywhere, tackle anything" jeep. Anyone who knows about rock crawling will tell you. Any rig can be built to be bad@$$ in the rocks. But the jeep just offers a good starting point. Thats where ford needs to position the bronco imo. Factory equipped, its capable. Ready to be modified into a beast. Without that image. Its just another suv to the average buyer.

 

[Tslater1989]

Images and video of it climbing some pretty rough two tracks, up in the woods with camping gear. Taking kayaks to the river down a rough trail. Climbing up a mountain and buzzing across a desert valley. It will sell in droves.

 

[Nanook]

SFA is all but capable of being on par with typical IFS Suv ride comfort. BUT IFS is better for road use in a vast majority of circumstances. I hate to disagree with SFA junkies, but its true. The only thing tied to both wheels is a sway bar. This allows for a better ride quality with less bobbing from side to side and feeling the bumps. A good example. If you go over a speed bump with an f150. Drivers side on passenger off. The front just soaks it up. The rear feels like the truck is being kicked to the passenger side. I dont mind because I drive large vehicles on a regular basis. My wife likes the smoothness of her explorer which is independent all the way around. Take all of this with a grain of salt though. Living in michigan, we have terrible roads. Voted one of the worst in the country.
All that being said. Off road credentials sell jeeps. Even if they barely touch a gravel road. People like the image of the "go anywhere, tackle anything" jeep. Anyone who knows about rock crawling will tell you. Any rig can be built to be bad@$$ in the rocks. But the jeep just offers a good starting point. Thats where ford needs to position the bronco imo. Factory equipped, its capable. Ready to be modified into a beast. Without that image. Its just another suv to the average buyer.

I don’t think anyone disagrees that IFS = better ride quality.
And you are absolutely correct about the importance of the Bronco being able to be modified into a beast.
That is where the argument in IFS vs SFA is. The IFS crowd is ignoring the limitations IFS presents to the aftermarket and their wallet while defending better on road comfort in their off-road vehicle. The exact same thing every mfg that has built a wrangler competitor has said and done. Which has failed and led to the vehicle being killed off and has only solidified the Wrangler as the true off-road vehicle.

 

[Fosters]

I don’t think anyone disagrees that IFS = better ride quality.
And you are absolutely correct about the importance of the Bronco being able to be modified into a beast.
That is where the argument in IFS vs SFA is. The IFS crowd is ignoring the limitations IFS presents to the aftermarket and their wallet while defending better on road comfort in their off-road vehicle. The exact same thing every mfg that has built a wrangler competitor has said and done. Which has failed and led to the vehicle being killed off and has only solidified the Wrangler as the true off-road vehicle.

Nailed it.

Images and video of it climbing some pretty rough two tracks, up in the woods with camping gear. Taking kayaks to the river down a rough trail. Climbing up a mountain and buzzing across a desert valley. It will sell in droves.

Did it look something like this?

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