The IFS vs SFA Thread

[frinesi2]

Well that's settled then:

Team O'Neil Rally School Finds the 2018 Jeep Wrangler Rubicon Makes for a Terrible Rally Car

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[Fosters]

What's new is that the market loves any off roader right now. And like Randy92Fox mentioned, the used values on all of those old competitors are very strong, so there's demand for that type of vehicle.


Yeah, totally. I have and continue to freely admit that I'm in the minority among the enthusiasts. The thing is, the enthusiasts are the minority already.

Look at the poll even on this forum about what people want for the Bronco. Yes, more people care about rock crawling than high speed, but the majority only want capability for moderate trails. What's more, more people care about daily driveability than rock crawling and high speed combined. IFS is better for a daily driver and still able to do moderate trails no problem. So Ford could please the majority with IFS, and then to give it the necessary off road image they make a high speed version because that's easy, they already know how to do that from the Raptors. It just so happens that would be exactly what I want. In no way do I expect Ford to launch a vehicle with the intention of catering to me, but they may wind up doing it anyways.

We've went over this "moderate" this and "moderate" that already. Enthusiast vehicles don't sell because they're very good at being moderate. The point is, the F150 Raptor and the Ranger Raptor whenever we'll get it are already good at moderate trails that the majority you're talking about wants... The point is, there are no rock crawler alternatives to the wrangler.

And stop making it like daily driving with a solid front axle is impossible and your teeth are gonna fall out when you hit a pothole because oh, IFS is so superior. 90% of the people who just want something for moderate trails wouldn't be able to tell the difference between a solid axle in a modern vehicle and an IFS, on the street.

 

[Fosters]

some... thing...? singular? Facepalm

There's one thing that it does really well that the others just didn't...

 

[Jalisurr]

... and yet those competitors are long gone, and the wrangler made it just fine. If only there was something the wrangler has that the others don't...

Yeah, like a 2 door version, or a removable roof! Good thing the Bronco can have those regardless of front suspension architecture.

Also, the IFS 4Runner is still here and selling stronger than ever. The wrangler admittedly sells better, but it's around 50% more, and it has a much lower entry price so that's not unexpected.

We've went over this "moderate" this and "moderate" that already. Enthusiast vehicles don't sell because they're very good at being moderate. The point is, the F150 Raptor and the Ranger Raptor whenever we'll get it are already good at moderate trails that the majority you're talking about wants... The point is, there are no rock crawler alternatives to the wrangler.

Yes, I agree with all of this. The key for a vehicle like this to sell well is, as you mentioned, that it needs to have an image of off-road prowess. We all know the vast majority will never actually take it to its limits. So, Ford needs that image, but they don't necessarily need to get it through Rock Crawling - if IFS better fits the actual underlying desires of their buyers (beyond image), then it would be easy for them to get that image through more high speed focused activities like the Bronco R. They already have all the gear to make a T6 platform go fast offroad. And then when the people test drive a wrangler and bronco back to back (because they are the two vehicles in the class with strong off-road images), they may be swayed over by the Bronco's better on road manners. I know a lot of the reviews of the Ranger Raptor have commented on how amazing the ride is with those cushy Fox Shox.

Just to be clear: I understand the desire for a SFA, hard core, rock crawling Bronco and I'm not trying to say you're wrong for wanting one. If the Bronco does end up SFA, it'll be a vehicle I respect but don't desire, just like the Wrangler. However, while we're in this period of not knowing much of anything about what the Bronco will actually be, I'm just putting out there why Ford might go a different way and still end up with a successful Wrangler competitor...which would also end up with them making the vehicle I want. In my perfect world, on top of the IFS base Bronco and Bronco Raptor, they'll have a Rock Monster package that gives you your SFA, sway bar disconnects and lockers.

And stop making it like daily driving with a solid front axle is impossible and your teeth are gonna fall out when you hit a pothole because oh, IFS is so superior. 90% of the people who just want something for moderate trails wouldn't be able to tell the difference between a solid axle in a modern vehicle and an IFS, on the street.

I've never said you can't daily a SFA, just that IFS is better for that purpose which I don't think anyone is debating. Even disregarding the handling and ride benefits, you get rack and pinion steering instead of a box, and that's something your average person will probably be able to feel a difference with if they were test driving them back to back.

 

[phillyfx4]

Well that's settled then:

Team O'Neil Rally School Finds the 2018 Jeep Wrangler Rubicon Makes for a Terrible Rally Car

Das right ….. I want it mean while being comfortable too.....dag darn it , hey I'm gettin' old

 

[Stampede.Offroad]

Well that's settled then:

Team O'Neil Rally School Finds the 2018 Jeep Wrangler Rubicon Makes for a Terrible Rally Car

"Wranglers are terrific on every surface, as long as you take things nice and slow, no sudden movements."​

Duh? Rigid structural components, high center of gravity ... it's not rocket surgery. A normal pickup sucks at that job too.

It follows with the popular Jeeping slogan "go anywhere you want, slowly"

 

[Fosters]

Just to be clear: I understand the desire for a SFA, hard core, rock crawling Bronco and I'm not trying to say you're wrong for wanting one. If the Bronco does end up SFA, it'll be a vehicle I respect but don't desire, just like the Wrangler. However, while we're in this period of not knowing much of anything about what the Bronco will actually be, I'm just putting out there why Ford might go a different way and still end up with a successful Wrangler competitor...which would also end up with them making the vehicle I want. In my perfect world, on top of the IFS base Bronco and Bronco Raptor, they'll have a Rock Monster package that gives you your SFA, sway bar disconnects and lockers.
.

Let's be real, if the bronco came out exactly as you wanted it, and then they released another bronco that had a V8 option and a solid axle, you'd argue that even that one has to have an IFS because you don't have a narrow 2 door removable top compact with good tow ratings rally oriented v8 option anywhere on the market.

the point is, there's a 4 runner, and there's gonna be a ranger raptor that's damn near what you want - yes, it's not a 2 door suv, it's a 2 door truck - and an f150 raptor, and a grand cherokee and a subaru forester and everything else with an IFS... but if we want a wrangler competitor, we can't have that because obviously nobody wants or needs a rock crawler.

And the wrangler will go on having that market all to itself because people are just absolutely craving moderate trails ability and comfortable IFS mall crawling ability.

 

[Jalisurr]

Let's be real, if the bronco came out exactly as you wanted it, and then they released another bronco that had a V8 option and a solid axle, you'd argue that even that one has to have an IFS because you don't have a narrow 2 door removable top compact with good tow ratings rally oriented v8 option anywhere on the market.

Whoa, hey now. We seem to have moved from talking about facts and opinions to making statements about me personally. I've said in more than one place on the forum I'd be totally fine with a 2.7 or 3.0. I've also said I don't care about the removable roof and would never use it anyways. Give me a swb, 2 door suv with raptor-esque suspension and a TTV6 and I'm happy. I want a modern version of the Pajero Evolution I already own. If you've decided that I'm somebody who will never be pleased with anything Ford can make...I don't know what to tell ya.

the point is, there's a 4 runner, and there's gonna be a ranger raptor that's damn near what you want - yes, it's not a 2 door suv, it's a 2 door truck - and an f150 raptor, and a grand cherokee and a subaru forester and everything else with an IFS... but if we want a wrangler competitor, we can't have that because obviously nobody wants or needs a rock crawler.

Ok, first off the Ranger Raptor isn't a 2 door truck, it only comes in 4 door. There's a heck of a big difference between a 17.5 foot long ranger raptor and a jeep wrangler 2 door. To say nothing of the F-150 Raptor which is comically huge.

The fact of the matter is, there is only ONE 2 door, short wheelbase SUV on the north american market right now, period. It is a SFA rock crawler. I would like one that isn't.

You seem to have decided that me literally saying "I understand the desire for a SFA, hard core, rock crawling Bronco and I'm not trying to say you're wrong for wanting one." is somehow me saying "nobody wants or needs a rock crawler"?

And the wrangler will go on having that market all to itself because people are just absolutely craving moderate trails ability and comfortable IFS mall crawling ability.

People are craving ANYTHING with an off road image right now. 4Runner, Wrangler, ZR2, TRD Pro, Raptor, you name it. But go look at the poll on this very forum. Moderate trails and daily driveability both outweigh rock crawling and high speed combined. People want the image of a hard core off road machine with the capability to comfortably do moderate trails and good daily driving characteristics.

 

[Fosters]

Whoa, hey now. We seem to have moved from talking about facts and opinions to making statements about me personally. I've said in more than one place on the forum I'd be totally fine with a 2.7 or 3.0. I've also said I don't care about the removable roof and would never use it anyways. Give me a swb, 2 door suv with raptor-esque suspension and a TTV6 and I'm happy. I want a modern version of the Pajero Evolution I already own. If you've decided that I'm somebody who will never be pleased with anything Ford can make...I don't know what to tell ya.

That's not what I said at all. I said that no matter what they make, even when they make something they claim will compete with the wrangler, to you it must have an IFS. Even if you got that vehicle and another cooler one comes out that will have an SFA, you will argue that that cooler one should have an IFS because yours doesn't have x y z coolness option.

Ok, first off the Ranger Raptor isn't a 2 door truck, it only comes in 4 door. There's a heck of a big difference between a 17.5 foot long ranger raptor and a jeep wrangler 2 door. To say nothing of the F-150 Raptor which is comically huge.

The fact of the matter is, there is only ONE 2 door, short wheelbase SUV on the north american market right now, period. It is a SFA rock crawler. I would like one that isn't.

The fact of the matter is, there were more 2 door short wheelbase SUVs on the north american market. The SFA one survived. The FJ cruiser is gone, the Vehicross is gone, the Amigo is gone. Arguing that this one has to be IFS because there is one with a solid axle, is idiotic. And arguing that this one has to be IFS because every other IFS vehicle is too large or you don't like its image or the number of doors or its too many inches in one direction, is doubly idiotic. That's where my comment came from - whatever Ford makes that will be the coolest thing, you'll want it to be IFS, because that's what matters to you.

Damned be what sells with no competitor; and damned be what was already tried and failed - FJ, vehicross, etc.

You seem to have decided that me literally saying "I understand the desire for a SFA, hard core, rock crawling Bronco and I'm not trying to say you're wrong for wanting one." is somehow me saying "nobody wants or needs a rock crawler"?


People are craving ANYTHING with an off road image right now. 4Runner, Wrangler, ZR2, TRD Pro, Raptor, you name it. But go look at the poll on this very forum. Moderate trails and daily driveability both outweigh rock crawling and high speed combined. People want the image of a hard core off road machine with the capability to comfortably do moderate trails and good daily driving characteristics.

People don't pay for the image backed by nothing impressive. The Celica looked fast in its hey day and it was a turd. What happened? You can put whatever Monster RAPTOR stickers you want on an escape, make it look all kinds of cool, but if it's the same shitty wrong wheel drive pos, no one will buy it based on the image. The image comes from its capability, not looks, despite the meaning of the word.

Last but not least, if you wanna go really fast in the forest in a rally type vehicle... look at a side by side. short, light, faster than anything you can drive on the road (unless like me, in AZ, you can drive your side by side on the road), and way cheaper than anything remotely close in performance. There are so many options there, in a vehicle purpose built for what you want to do, it's not even funny. I'll take the pepsi challenge with my Can-Am against a bronco, IFS or not ;-)

 

[Jalisurr]

That's not what I said at all. I said that no matter what they make, even when they make something they claim will compete with the wrangler, to you it must have an IFS. Even if you got that vehicle and another cooler one comes out that will have an SFA, you will argue that that cooler one should have an IFS because yours doesn't have x y z coolness option.

I'm really trying to figure out where you're getting this impression of me from.

The fact of the matter is, there were more 2 door short wheelbase SUVs on the north american market. The SFA one survived. The FJ cruiser is gone, the Vehicross is gone, the Amigo is gone. Arguing that this one has to be IFS because there is one with a solid axle, is idiotic. And arguing that this one has to be IFS because every other IFS vehicle is too large or you don't like its image or the number of doors or its too many inches in one direction, is doubly idiotic. That's where my comment came from - whatever Ford makes that will be the coolest thing, you'll want it to be IFS, because that's what matters to you.

Damned be what sells with no competitor; and damned be what was already tried and failed - FJ, vehicross, etc.

The 'coolest' thing doesn't matter to me. I want the vehicle I want, I have a very defined list of desires. If Ford makes it, they can make any other vehicle they want for all I care. I don't know how I can say that any more clearly. I think I've been pretty consistent in stating my desires about this here. In what way is stating that I want a modern IFS vehicle with off road ability that's within a certain dimension 'doubly idiotic'? I'm sorry I don't share your opinions and desires, but saying mine are idiotic just because they aren't the same as yours is...well, something.

People don't pay for the image backed by nothing impressive. The Celica looked fast in its hey day and it was a turd. What happened?

Are we talking the 7th gen Celica? Because previous gens did such turd-y things like winning the world rally championship. Even the 7th gen with no rally version to back up the sporty image sold very well for a small 2 door sports car, selling much better than the much more capable FR-S/86/BRZ that essentially replaced it.

You can put whatever Monster RAPTOR stickers you want on an escape, make it look all kinds of cool, but if it's the same shitty wrong wheel drive pos, no one will buy it based on the image. The image comes from its capability, not looks, despite the meaning of the word.

Yes, totally correct. But the image and capability people buy doesn't need to be a rock crawling one. The Raptors sell with a high speed image and capability, as does the ZR2. The Bronco could do the same if Ford so desired.

Last but not least, if you wanna go really fast in the forest in a rally type vehicle... look at a side by side. short, light, faster than anything you can drive on the road (unless like me, in AZ, you can drive your side by side on the road), and way cheaper than anything remotely close in performance. There are so many options there, in a vehicle purpose built for what you want to do, it's not even funny. I'll take the pepsi challenge with my Can-Am against a bronco, IFS or not ;-)

Yeah, side by sides are sweet, no doubt. However, for what I do I need a street legal vehicle (which SxSs can't be in Canada) and one that's enclosed with heat so I don't freeze

Edit: Corrected my celica generations

 

[BroncoMike]

Let's keep something in mind here: People drive SFA Wranglers every day to work, to the mall, to drop their kids off at school, to dinner on the weekends, and throughout the concrete parking jungle garages across the nation on a daily basis.

All of it DESPITE the horrific, life-threatening, baby seal-clubbing atrocities of the reviled widowmaker death wobble front suspension.

Solely because the machine is capable of doing stupid stuff off-road that their owners will NEVER even seriously consider doing.

But the machine has to first earn the credentials to do all the things people will never do in it, to earn their respect.

Got it?

 

[phillyfx4]

Let's keep something in mind here: People drive SFA Wranglers every day to work, to the mall, to drop their kids off at school, to dinner on the weekends, and throughout the concrete parking jungle garages across the nation on a daily basis.

All of it DESPITE the horrific, life-threatening, baby seal-clubbing atrocities of the reviled widowmaker death wobble front suspension.

Solely because the machine is capable of doing stupid stuff off-road that their owners will NEVER even seriously consider doing.

But the machine has to first earn the credentials to do all the things people will never do in it, to earn their respect.

Got it?

same for the owners who will NEVER crawl rocks and boulders and will appreciate the Bronco's performance in the snow and comforting ride of the IFS on highways ??

I'll still bet my house there's gonna be a SFA trim level available for those that need it …..

 

[BroncoMike]

same for the owners who will NEVER crawl rocks and boulders and will appreciate the Bronco's performance in the snow and comforting ride of the IFS on highways ??

Nope. If Bronco doesn't have the "cred" to begin with, the only thing it's going to sell is more Wranglers. That's an exaggeration, of course, but it won't be the stellar performer they want it to be in the sales department unless it is a solid contender to Wrangler in many ways.

I'll still bet my house there's gonna be a SFA trim level available for those that need it …..

I'm not ready to bet. But I'm doing a lot of hoping for that to come true.

 

[Tslater1989]

same for the owners who will NEVER crawl rocks and boulders and will appreciate the Bronco's performance in the snow and comforting ride of the IFS on highways ??

I'll still bet my house there's gonna be a SFA trim level available for those that need it …..

See, I'm torn, in my use case. If I'm being honest and reasonable, IFS makes more sense. But the impractical side of me is hoping for SFA badass toughness....
My primary use would be a daily driver 40-50 miles a day. Maybe 2-3 weekends in the summer would it actually be USED off road. Then again. If its as capable as I'm hoping it is. That would probably change to maybe 5-6 times a summer. So I'm having an internal struggle.

 

[Randy92Fox]

Nope. If Bronco doesn't have the "cred" to begin with, the only thing it's going to sell is more Wranglers.

The Bronco can establish off road credit without crawling over big rocks slowly. The Raptor has tons of off road credibility.

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