Confirmed: Manual + Sasquatch Bronco, October Build & Price!

[Incognito]

No.
That 7M clutch plate and gears are directly doing the work and stress that a computer controlled 10A slush box moderates with hydraulic valves and a torque converter.

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[Incognito]

Exactly!

kodiakisland was wondering why Ford has to take extra time to verify the Mansquatch option and get it to the dealership.

 

[Squatch]

Exactly!

kodiakisland was wondering why Ford has to take extra time to verify the Mansquatch option and get it to the dealership.

Ford's been flaunting that manual 2-door with 37s on it, though. If they didn't take the time to verify it before they did that, someone really dumb was promoted way too high.

My thinking is that they were going to put it through all of their official testing, Six Sigma crap, etc. but someone in the bean counters or marketing research thought they could save money by skipping the probable low take-rate and sold that idea to someone who made the decision to not offer Man-Squatch.

You're right, they need to push it past the bean counters to make sure they won't go bankrupt on warrantee issues. I don't think they have or will find any issues with it, but I'd be okay with them spec'ing out the Getrag a little more stout just to be safe.

 

[Rocketeer Rick]

Its actually not the same torque as the automatic. A lot of people tend to think of torque in terms of flywheel numbers, as with HP. But torque is multiplicative by gearing. So, how much torque gets to the axles is many times that of what starts off at the flywheel. Of course, this varies depending on which transmission gear you are in, but your worst case scenario is first gear.

So, if you have 4.65:1 first in the a/t and 6.9:1 in the m/t, the same flywheel torque means almost 50% more torque exiting the transmission and going down the prop shaft. It is then further multiplied by the final drive gears at the axle, so if that is 4.7:1, guess what? You have a potential of over 9700 lb-ft of torque at the axle if there was 300 lb-ft to start at the flywheel and you went through the manual trans. Now, I've ignored the low range t-case for simplicity, but there is still another factor that is important - the "impact factor".

Imagine you rev up the engine and dump the clutch at a stop light. The inertial wind up and release slams the entire driveline when the clutch hooks up. That windup generates an instantaneous load spike called an impact. With a manual clutch, the factor for this impact can be as high as 2.5-3:1, over and above everything else. With a torque convertor, the engagement is much softer, more like 1.5-2:1. So this is another area that makes for a difference in torque between the transmissions, even if they are behind the same engine. Slam that 9700 lb-ft across a 3:1 impact factor and the potential torque is now 29,000 lb-ft. Again, potential. A much more likely scenario is side stepping the clutch in 2nd gear, since that's the practical low gear for daily driving. And the impact factor is probably lower, given the lower grip of off-road tires on pavement.

I used the term "potential torque" above, because ultimately you will only generate what the tires can hold. If your tires break free at 5000 lb-ft, then that's all you'll get. In the business, this is usually referred to as "available torque", and is much more important than flywheel torque. This is the number that is used to size the axles and determine strength requirements. It is driven by vehicle mass and traction capability more than by sheer torque.

But the bottom line is, putting in a different transmission, with different ratios and different engagement method, is a very good reason to repeat a lot of driveline testing. Right now, there are bunch of engineers and component suppliers scrambling to provide new batches of parts and trying to fit into test machine and vehicle test schedules for a program they thought they were done with. Because at this point in time, they are probably already moving into phase-1 PPAP for the current version and had the validation testing behind them. That's why it'll be a late availability offering...

 

[Incognito]

Ford's been flaunting that manual 2-door with 37s on it, though. If they didn't take the time to verify it before they did that, someone really dumb was promoted way too high.

My thinking is that they were going to put it through all of their official testing, Six Sigma crap, etc. but someone in the bean counters or marketing research thought they could save money by skipping the probable low take-rate and sold that idea to someone who made the decision to not offer Man-Squatch.

You're right, they need to push it past the bean counters to make sure they won't go bankrupt on warrantee issues. I don't think they have or will find any issues with it, but I'd be okay with them spec'ing out the Getrag a little more stout just to be safe.

Ford probably deserves some slack for getting caught flat footed by the Bronco's MT take rate.
Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but the MT seems more popular on the Bronco than even most sports cars these days.

The polls here on B6G , all show it well over 30% total.
That's astonishing if the sales plan out.



I'd *really * like to the the Mansquatch 7M's TQ rating above the standard 405ft lbs.

 

[Rocketeer Rick]

Torque is force X radius. What a tire does, in a simplified sense, is converts torque (from the axle shaft) into a driving force at the contact patch. If the radius of the tire increases, then when you divide that out of a fixed torque value, you have less force at the road. This is why we typically offset that with increased torque multiplication at the ring gear (by changing gear ratios).

So, if everything else is equal, you would require more input torque to make a bigger tire break free, in a perfect world, just based on that. But there's obviously a lot of other things that factor in. The bigger tire is heavier. It has a greater inertia as well. So, you have to overcome more to get it rolling. And the extra mass give it maybe fractionally more grip because the weight pushes down more. Maybe.

But another thing to consider is the tread compound. The 35" tires are M/T's, which are likely to have a lower coefficient of friction on pavement than the smaller A/T tires. I know I've witnessed a marked difference between them on damp concrete, the M/T is much more likely to slip. And the smaller still all seasons are probably somewhat stickier too.

Ultimately, the things that factor into determining how much torque it takes to make a tire break away are the tire's coefficient of friction, and the normal load on that tire pushing it down. If those two factors don't change much between sizes, the actual break away torque won't change much. With that said, the larger, heavier tire will still have a more severe fatigue cycle on the axle though.

 

[rmc523]

I find it strange you say the B&P has nothing to do with ordering.... other than pricing... if a customer I guess doesn’t care what trim or what the price of options for said trim is then yes screw BP and just go straight to the ordering window when it opens..we as consumers know only of survey pricing, not what actual pricing will be?
So the B&P has everything g to do with ordering.. they go hand in hand ..
but I’m guessing most - most consumers want to know the price of the product they want to purchase before let’s see actually purchasing it...

You're misinterpreting what I said, and interpreting it too broadly.

I said that B&P has nothing to do with the actual ordering process - and it doesn't.

You don't check the boxes you want on B&P and then email Ford what you chose on B&P to place your order. To order, you go through the dealer.

Yes, B&P tells you what the price will be, and duh, obviously people want to know that. But it otherwise doesn't play a role in actually ordering.

 

[Tory Brecht]

...I'm hoping the joy of wanting a Bronco (9 months from now) doesn't wane..and maybe just keep my Edge...

It takes 9 months to make a human baby - I think you can surely wait 9 months for a brand new Bronco.

 

[Russ1Bronco]

It takes 9 months to make a human baby - I think you can surely wait 9 months for a brand new Bronco.

...I'm not sure if the people at Ford will have most reservations covered in that time....set backs months at a time are not good...I worked on a line for many years..when a new model hits the line...only a few vehicles a day are made....this isn't a new grille with new tail lights..

 

[Tory Brecht]

...I'm not sure if the people at Ford will have most reservations covered in that time....set backs months at a time are not good...I worked on a line for many years..when a new model hits the line...only a few vehicles a day are made....this isn't a new grille with new tail lights..

Oh I agree. Just wanted to make my dumb baby joke.

 

[BroncoJay]

You're misinterpreting what I said, and interpreting it too broadly.

I said that B&P has nothing to do with the actual ordering process - and it doesn't.

You don't check the boxes you want on B&P and then email Ford what you chose on B&P to place your order. To order, you go through the dealer.

Yes, B&P tells you what the price will be, and duh, obviously people want to know that. But it otherwise doesn't play a role in actually ordering.

No shit the BP doesn’t allow you to actually make the order. I wasn’t insinuating that!all I’m saying is buyers will need the Bp for the information on pricing before ordering.. “DUH”

 

[Chrism81]

You actually sent him a normal message instead of snarky twitter posts? Who would have thought that would get you an actual response.

Also.... Its still September. There's a chance (though admittedly slight) that "October" was a CYA comment and we still see the B&P in the next week or so.

It says in the press release when they released the manual info that b&p is October now and Mike Levine Confirmed that. Although, I don't believe anything that comes out of his mouth anymore

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