Electronics; how much is too much?

[BroncoMike]

Yeap, still here. Sorry reality is disturbing your fantasy. No worries, probably not here for long. However after owning EB's for over 40 years I was naturally looking forward to the New Bronco. I check the net ever now and then to see what's happening and found this Forum. It's been an 'educational' experience.

I don't have a fantasy - I live in the real world where manufacturers have to fight between such demands as broad market appeal, EPA regulations, safety regulations, risk management attorneys, consumer price point, competitive offerings from other manufacturers, and investor expectations - to name just a few. You are the one with the fantasy - the fantasy that Ford could sell a car without sophisticated electronics to keep emissions within legal limits, stop the vehicle in the distances people have become accustomed to, and inflate the pillows when all else fails.

I'm sure you have the experience to stop your car better than modern ABS can, modulate throttle better than traction control can, shift more efficiently than an electronic-controlled transmission can, all that and more - but the truth is, 90+% of the people who are walking into a dealership today can't do that. Think about it - probably half the drivers on the road in the US have never even driven a car without ABS... they wouldn't know how to manage a maximum performance stop or any of a variety of low-traction environments without it. That's who the manufacturers have to build for, and I'm glad they do - because those people are my adversaries on the road. Anything that stops them from accidentally killing me is an improvement.

I'm here to get information on what Ford is going to build; but I'm going to wait to see what they build before I bash it. I acknowledge that it will undoubtedly have as standard equipment things such as air conditioning, power door locks, power windows, auto headlights, electronic transfer case and auto hubs, several drive modes, and OTA flashable PCM - the vast majority of consumers demand such conveniences; and laws, rules, and regulations require the safety and emissions part that necessitates precise (electronic) control of certain systems. If you think the NSA or FBI wants to shut your car off, you have a slew of issues that can't be addressed on an automotive forum.

If Ford re-made the Early Bronco, their market share would be statistically absent. I feel your pain - I would buy a brand-new '77 Bronco if they could do it. But NO manufacturer is going to make your dream car - it's legally and economically impossible. Stick to your principles, and you will never have a new car again. Scream at the sky about the injustice, but it isn't going to change. That simple.

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[Ole Skool Bronc]

From the spare, looks to be a Sahara package? Post a pic when the water gets to the bottom of your dash.
Agreed, but only if you special order the rear locker, otherwise it's basically stickers and a 44 rear only. When the JL's came out I rushed down to buy a 2018 JK Rubi Recon, but being a Bronco fan decided to wait for the non-existent 2020 Bronco. Kinda regretting my decision since it's really 2021 and those brand new JK Recons are gone forever.

Btw; send me a pic when the water gets to the bottom of your dash; then I'll be impressed. Cool pic though, very nice clean looking rig. I laugh at these guys in JK's and JL's with snorkles up on the windshield. If its for cold air intake; I kinda get it (even though modern mapping samples air temperature and adjusts accordingly). But for deep water? Hahaha! I could get my 46 Willys up to the dash with an electric fan and water proofing, but was scared to go deeper because I didn't want to ruin my gauges. (for the millennials; that's the gauges in the dash, not ears)

 

[Carolina Jim]

If Ford re-made the Early Bronco...

Bronco Mike...your harsh realities are prolly spot on...but you might like to follow the development of a Bronco competitor now being developed in the UK...supposedly 2021 model @$35K in the USA. Likely won't prevent me from being a Bronco owner this time next year - but still kinda interesting:

Random clips from the British press: The Ineos Grenadier will mirror the original Defender’s platform closely. Dirk Heilmann, CEO of Ineos Automotive confirmed that it will be a body-on-frame construction with a steel ladder chassis and an aluminium body. Ineos plans to make the Grenadier utilitarian and functional, with a fairly stripped-back cabin which forgoes such luxuries as carpet and sound deadening. Leather will be used on the seats purely for its durability and drain plugs will be included, allowing the driver to easily hose out the interior. Ineos recently confirmed that it had signed a partnership with BMW, who will provide its 3.0-litre straight-six TwinPower turbo petrol and diesel engines. Both units will feed their power to a permanent all-wheel-drive system via an eight-speed automatic transmission.

BMW’s 252bhp 2.0-litre turbocharged petrol, and BMW’s 261bhp 3.0-litre straight-six diesel

Grenadier will be an ‘uncompromising 4x4 with a ladder chassis, beam axles, locking differentials.’

‘We're dropping the S from SUV. It's a utility vehicle. A working tool. It may be more lifestyle in the USA, where it might be used at the weekend as well as in the working week, towing a horse box or a jet ski.

Expect its dimensions to be roughly the same as the old Defender, with short overhangs.

We want to build the world’s purest 4×4 and are aiming it at explorers, farmers, and off-road enthusiasts across the globe.

The British firm’s new off-roader will adopt a similarly spartan approach to infotainment…in place of an integrated infotainment system, the finished product could feature a mount for drivers to use their own devices.

 

[OX1]

I didn't want to ruin my gauges.

HAHA!! Just for reference, 78/79 guages were fine after complete submerge (well, at least halfway up guage panel, IIRC).
Back in the day, someone gave me 2, 79's for $300. The one that ran, dragged it out to the pine barrens and immediately
swamped it. Always wanted to do that. Pulled it out, pulled plugs, cranked 6 gallons of water out exhaust and cylinders. dried
out distr and wheeled the rest of the day.

I realize those days are way over, but I do expect that if super high performance cars can virtually shut off traction control, (buddies 10 year old Z06 has 4 or 6 different traction/stability control settings I'd guess) than they can do that on the Bronco. If BMW can let you permanently shut down start/stop, then so can Ford (not just allow you to shut it down EVERY time you drive it). I also expect, being a supposed enthusiast vehicle, that these defeats be easily done, like traction control button on Stangs.

 

[BroncoMike]

Bronco Mike...your harsh realities are prolly spot on...but you might like to follow the development of a Bronco competitor now being developed in the UK...supposedly 2021 model @$35K in the USA. Likely won't prevent me from being a Bronco owner this time next year - but still kinda interesting:

Random clips from the British press: The Ineos Grenadier will mirror the original Defender’s platform closely. Dirk Heilmann, CEO of Ineos Automotive confirmed that it will be a body-on-frame construction with a steel ladder chassis and an aluminium body. Ineos plans to make the Grenadier utilitarian and functional, with a fairly stripped-back cabin which forgoes such luxuries as carpet and sound deadening. Leather will be used on the seats purely for its durability and drain plugs will be included, allowing the driver to easily hose out the interior. Ineos recently confirmed that it had signed a partnership with BMW, who will provide its 3.0-litre straight-six TwinPower turbo petrol and diesel engines. Both units will feed their power to a permanent all-wheel-drive system via an eight-speed automatic transmission.

BMW’s 252bhp 2.0-litre turbocharged petrol, and BMW’s 261bhp 3.0-litre straight-six diesel

Grenadier will be an ‘uncompromising 4x4 with a ladder chassis, beam axles, locking differentials.’

‘We're dropping the S from SUV. It's a utility vehicle. A working tool. It may be more lifestyle in the USA, where it might be used at the weekend as well as in the working week, towing a horse box or a jet ski.

Expect its dimensions to be roughly the same as the old Defender, with short overhangs.

We want to build the world’s purest 4×4 and are aiming it at explorers, farmers, and off-road enthusiasts across the globe.

The British firm’s new off-roader will adopt a similarly spartan approach to infotainment…in place of an integrated infotainment system, the finished product could feature a mount for drivers to use their own devices.

I will keep a lookout for it, sounds retro, cool, and capable. But I guarantee that some people will be critical of every element of it... the BMW powerplants all have digital everything, they will have to meet safety and emissions. Have a problem with it? The folks at the local Ineos Automotive in town will be happy to take a warranty look-see. Oh, wait - there is no supportive dealer network AT ALL. Thankfully, the manufacturer has the ability to scan it OTA... no, wait, people don't want the CIA to be able to brick your vehicle. If it's built by the English, people will have lots to say about that also.

That stuff aside, it sounds like a very cool machine. The infotainment part is the best news of all - let me bluetooth my phone to a simple amp, nothing but a volume/fader/balance/bass control on the dash, my phone does everything else.

I love what Musk has done to the auto business - shown them that a newcomer can build and sell a car in America - but it has cost him (and his shareholders) dearly. You have to have a lot of financial inertia to start an auto manufacturing company that will be successful today, I wish Ineos (and Tesla) the best but the odds are heavily against an upstart - Tesla is still touch and go. My prediction is that it will be a boutique vehicle - you won't see them in numbers like you do the JK and JL.

 

[BroncoMike]

Not to mention, the river you crossed didn't require sinking it up to the dashboard. If somebody has a route requires that, they have a lot of water intrusion preparation to do to ANY car, not just "modern" cars. If they're submarining a car that deep for the sheer joy of it, they're in the market for a specialty vehicle the likes of which we've not seen on a showroom floor for several decades. Or they will be in the market "shortly".

 

[Ole Skool Bronc]

Ive black leather
What does a heated seat module cost including troubleshooting and labor labor?

 

[Jalisurr]

I would buy a brand-new '77 Bronco if they could do it.

Other companies can, have, and continue to do it. You can buy what is essentially a completely new, ground up rebuilt original bronco from a few different places. Expect to pay well into the 6 figures for one though, because that's what the market for them is at.

(buddies 10 year old Z06 has 4 or 6 different traction/stability control settings I'd guess)

If it's 10 years old, it's the same year as mine - there are 4 settings: everything on, traction off but stability on, traction off with stability allowing some slide angle (competitive driving mode), and everything off. If the Bronco has a similar level of control over it (or even more like the newer vettes) I'll be happy.


Really though, if you want a simple, old school off roader that you can buy new, I feel like in today's market you should be looking at something like the Mahindra Roxor (and a road going truck or suv to tow it where you want to wheel). There ARE still some fun simple vehicles to be had if they don't need to meet emissions and safety regulations.

For me, I like modern conveniences. The whole reason I might be tempted out of my Pajero Evo is because of the modern electronics and things that it doesn't have, combined with modern powertrains and better parts availability than a 20 year old japanese suv.

 

[BroncoMike]

Other companies can, have, and continue to do it. You can buy what is essentially a completely new, ground up rebuilt original bronco from a few different places. Expect to pay well into the 6 figures for one though, because that's what the market for them is at.

Okay, I guess I should have been more specific. If I could buy a brand-new '77 Bronco without having to live in it under a bridge eating ramen and cigarette butts, I would.

For that matter, if the new BroncoBronco doesn't turn me on, I'll likely throw the $45k I have earmarked for a new one into my '71. 4-link, coilovers, salvage a power/drivetrain out of a Raptor or drop the little Cummins crate motor in there.

 

[Ole Skool Bronc]

Please enlighten us on what qualifies you to have your "experienced opinion as to what a 21st century off road machine SHOULD BE". And don't say it's your "whole life spent as a union electrician" like you spouted off in the other thread like we're all of the sudden supposed to think higher of you.

Btw, owning old off roaders doesn't qualify you either.

Ya know dude.....

I wasn't bragging about being a union electrician - although it IS something to be proud of; 129,000 people took the licensing test last year, 58,000 failed.
I was merely responding to someone flaming me about being scared of electronics and if I only educated myself it would solve my electronic phobia on the new Bronco. This was followed by a joke that because I build automated systems, wire and program PLC's that I'm no "technician". Yes, they are absolutely correct; we make about 3 times as much as plug and play technicians.

Since you think I'm "spouting off", I'll give a little more to be sarcastically stupid with......

Before serving my apprenticeship and quitting College in 1980, I was majoring in Automotive, and minoring in electronics. I saw what was coming in the auto industry with electronics and emissions and thought it would be a good field to get into. I completed the classes and was ready to take the Smog License Exam when my life took a drastic turn for personal reasons. Moved to another city. Faked my way into a non-union electrical job to pay the bills. Went back to College at night for Code and Motor Controls. Then had a chance to do a Union Apprenticeship. The company I went to work had an Automated Division. I transferred out of construction to the Automated Division; they sent me to programming school. After 30 years and tired of my job, I applied and was hired by the local Junior College. Job description: "Electrical Professor" for the IT Department.

If that's not enough ammo to continue your 'Call of Duty' flaming tirade.....

At 16 I bought a wrecked 1946 CJ2A, built it, rolled it at 70 mph and built it again (yeah that fast; it had a Studebaker electric overdrive) I'm not going to take the time to list all the 4X's since and what I've built, but never was without a 4wd. Currently; 2 Dodge 3/4 ton 4x4 Diesels, 4 Jeeps and 1 early Bronco. The 2 Willys' are built. the TJ's; one is "under construction" the other; stock to mild build. The Bronco just sits - for now.

So flame away; it's kinda funny. Reminds me of what I tell my students; "Hire a teenager while they still know everything!"

There ya go bb, do you feel "enlightened" or just happy you have more flaming material?

 

[Ole Skool Bronc]

OSB, it would appear to me that the problem most people are having here with your post is this:
You expect EB levels of ruggedness, with new levels of reliability, without new levels of technology.
You expect the EB experience, in a new vehicle, without the things that new vehicles require.

JimmyDean, I appreciate your well thought post; but your premise is incorrect. I don't "expect", but what I want is; "EB levels of ruggedness with new levels of reliability," common sense "levels of technology" specific to a vehicle used on and off-road. Some one asked a page back what I specifically wanted; didn't have the time to answer then, but I'll answer this shortly.

 

[Ole Skool Bronc]

My prediction is that it will be a boutique vehicle - you won't see them in numbers like you do the JK and JL.

IF the Untied States allowed them to be imported I bet you'd see a few more!

 

[Ole Skool Bronc]

If you think the NSA or FBI wants to shut your car off, you have a slew of issues that can't be addressed on an automotive forum.

Really? No need to be rude. But you can help your ignorance (not sure if this forum accepts links). Look; do me a favor; Just google anything with the words; "hacker controls jeep" then get back to me and we'll see if you still think I have issues - (well issues related to vehicle wireless interface)

 

[Stampede.Offroad]

... the words; "hacker controls jeep" then get back to me and we'll see if you still think I have issues - (well issues related to vehicle wireless interface)

Yeah, I've read some of those. If people with malicious intent can hack into software systems and devices built by companies that specialize in those things, it will be cake for them to screw with the software and hardware implemented by an automotive company or some type whose focus is on the other properties of what they're peddling.

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