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Secrecy: How Much Is Too Much?

OX1

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IF you really want to know.......

.....here's the deal: in 2018 the JL came out; however they were still making the JK in 2018 - basically a 6 month overlap. After driving a couple of electronic laden JL's with wireless updating and push button start/stop, I decided I liked the JK better. I located a 2018 Recon in late 2018, drove it and made an offer. We were close on the numbers and I would of budged, but kept thinking I should wait for the new 2020 Bronco that was going to compete with Jeep. So I waited only to find out now it's 2021 and it will be "revealed" in 2020, not sold in 2020 (deceptive Ford marketing assholes). Now, that the Recons are all gone, I'm looking seriously at the new Bronco. I don't like what I'm reading between the lines, sounds like a JL with a blue oval badge.

Soooo.......I'm thinking; instead of dropping 50k on a new Bronco, I sould put 35k into my old 72 Bronco and have a head turner and a great performer with no electronics (except fuel injection and ignition).
The problem with that is it's now too nice to wheel, but maybe you weren't planning on wheeling new bronco either.
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I think some people forgot that we already know Ford’s goal with the Bronco:

9D4DFFCA-B1DA-49C5-922C-F8F6EED54384.jpeg
 

mikonrad

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I think some people forgot that we already know Ford’s goal with the Bronco:

9d4dffca-b1da-49c5-922c-f8f6eed54384-jpeg.jpg
Ha, that's right - forgot about this banner. For as little as we know about the (Bronco)Bronco, Ford has said enough for us to have some reasonable expectations. Could this just be a steaming pile, an Escape with a flat-windshield, or just a gadget-oriented crossover that actually doesn't have any kind of measurable capability outside of flexing that you've got a (Bronco)Bronco? Well, I guess, but at least we know enough(?) to know what Ford is aiming at - and likely don't have to worry about anything like GM's Blazer* redux. Yes, Ford is running a business and sometimes the product falls flat from the customer's POV. But as Chrispy mentioned, I don't think there's many people that would consider the Raptor as a poser-truck, I think. I'm sure it gets its criticisms but it isn't like the Raptor is a royal FX4 package. Seems Ford has the capabilities, and though pretty much everything has been under wraps, images like this tell me that Ford actually has a target we can presumably hold them to. It's on them to follow-through of course and if they drop the ball - well you can tell us how right you were... which should be fun.

I see folks getting, IMO, unnecessarily negative on here for the little that we do know and just out-of-the-gate assume Ford is going to completely blow-it. It's okay, save yourself some unnecessary frustration and decide to sit this one out. I suppose some would consider a reason to be negative is that it's fair to assume failure as we "know enough" from Ford's limited confirmations. Okay, I suppose if one has an issue with current-model technology/"quality-of-life" stuff and doesn't like the confirmed sharing w/ the Ranger platform/size, there's really not much hope for you to like the end-product. But if the issues fall more within the "unconfirmed" category, I suppose we just don't have enough to be stopped-up about yet. Give it some more time, we have the rest of our lives to be stopped-up about the Bronco.

*for sure not-a-real-Blazer
 
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Stampede.Offroad

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I think some people forgot that we already know Ford’s goal with the Bronco:

9D4DFFCA-B1DA-49C5-922C-F8F6EED54384.jpeg
Where does it say "Bronco"?

That slide is at the same presentation in which the only model seen was the "yet to be named rugged off road small utility" ... not the Bronco.

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baby OEM04_181119762_AR_0_DBVVGBODDNHL.jpg

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And the audience at the presentation was a crowd concerned with sales, not performance enthusiasts. So the adjective "beat" most likely means "sell more". To think that Ford wouldn't be talking about the baby or Courier as their SUVs capable of beating Jeep is unfortunately not true, because they already call the EcoSport an SUV ... "EcoSport SE is the small SUV that’s big on standard features" ...

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EcoSport SUV.png

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We actually have a quote from Jim Farley (a Ford Executive Vice President) that Bronco would be more about comfort than performance compared to the Wrangler -- this is the only piece of evidence we have regarding Ford's intentions for the objective capability of the Bronco. Lots of people have assumed otherwise and talked as if it were the case, but Ford has never given us that indication.

Concerning to me is the fact that there are now quite a few people who have attended Ford presentations in which the Bronco prototype was displayed, and no doubt talked about in some detail, but not a single one of them has mentioned some emphasized-by-Ford talking point regarding capability or off road performance. They all talk about its appearance. This makes it very concerning that Bronco will be hollow ... "all hat and no cattle" to borrow a phrase.

As much as I would like to think that Ford intends the Bronco to surpass or at least directly compete with the Wrangler in rugged capability or performance characteristics, there is zero evidence to support that hope. It seems quite far fetched to think Ford will lose sales to Wrangler or some Chinese knockoff by making a simple statements saying they did intend for the Bronco to "compete directly with Wrangler" or "exceed the off road performance of its Bronco predecessors" or even that it would have "rugged components like the new Superduty Tremor" anything vague like that which will give us an objective standard of performance without telling the competition what it looks like or which parts it is using.
 

TeocaliMG

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Concerning to me is the fact that there are now quite a few people who have attended Ford presentations in which the Bronco prototype was displayed, and no doubt talked about in some detail, but not a single one of them has mentioned some emphasized-by-Ford talking point regarding capability or off road performance. They all talk about its appearance. This makes it very concerning that Bronco will be hollow ... "all hat and no cattle" to borrow a phrase.

As much as I would like to think that Ford intends the Bronco to surpass or at least directly compete with the Wrangler in rugged capability or performance characteristics, there is zero evidence to support that hope. It seems quite far fetched to think Ford will lose sales to Wrangler or some Chinese knockoff by making a simple statements saying they did intend for the Bronco to "compete directly with Wrangler" or "exceed the off road performance of its Bronco predecessors" or even that it would have "rugged components like the new Superduty Tremor" anything vague like that which will give us an objective standard of performance without telling the competition what it looks like or which parts it is using.
I would take this with a grain of salt. For example most people who claim to have seen the Bronco at a "Ford Presentation" are probably confused about the small rugged ute. (which does look decently rugged by todays standards). There are even some of our own engineers on unrelated projects who get confused by this. As for the actual Bronco, I highly doubt anyone including upper management has seen a non franken ranger version of the Bronco, until perhaps VERY recently. And its not typical fashion to drive it from NMPDC to the nearest dealership meeting either. This real stuff is made for engineers by engineers to get data and hit objectives. The marketing is its own, and often there is a disconnect. Perhaps people have seen physical mockups, or nice CAD/Renders, but most people who have seen or know anything of consequence cant/wont spill the beans on it yet.

There are plenty of (ok, maybe just a few) other statements out there besides Farley's that I have heard making it clear we are going for Wrangler. If even by a different recipe, the goal is the same.
 

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Stampede.Offroad

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...
There are plenty of (ok, maybe just a few) other statements out there besides Farley's that I have heard making it clear we are going for Wrangler. If even by a different recipe, the goal is the same.
Please pose a link to such a quote.
 

Carolina Jim

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As much as I would like to think that Ford intends the Bronco to surpass or at least directly compete with the Wrangler in rugged capability or performance characteristics, there is zero evidence to support that hope.
Here's why I kinda doubt Bronco will match 'rugged capability'. Textbook approach to competing with a market-leader is to match price...and create headspace on one of the three performance dynamics most important to customers. Each of those dynamics is directly linked to design/production costs - so when you spend more in one area, by definition you're spending less in other areas. Of course, all this is determined at the strategy/concept stage. Seems like the Farley quote, "more about comfort than performance" spills the beans.
 

TeocaliMG

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Here's why I kinda doubt Bronco will match 'rugged capability'. Textbook approach to competing with a market-leader is to match price...and create headspace on one of the three performance dynamics most important to customers. Each of those dynamics is directly linked to design/production costs - so when you spend more in one area, by definition you're spending less in other areas. Of course, all this is determined at the strategy/concept stage. Seems like the Farley quote, "more about comfort than performance" spills the beans.
Did anyone watch Farley speak on the Aviator reveal, or Explorer reveal? (Separate events) its not exactly reading off a teleprompter... it was honestly embarrassing as he stumbled to come up with what to say from his own information or what ever he was practicing in the mirror. I would not treat it as scripture, ever. Hau Thai Tang, or Kumar Galhotra are FAR better sources for technical information and coherence.

Stampede, I will try to dig something up for you later if I can (at work right now ;) ) A lot of this was a while ago so public statements and internal meetings may be melding in my memory and I am not about to say anything incriminating yet

(Farley if you are reading this, I love my job, just take a nap before the next meeting, jet lag is a b*tch)
 

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I went back through my texts with my buddy, his exact words are that Ford is “Attacking every trim level of the Jeep Wrangler except the base sport.”

“Every trim level” would clearly include the Rubicon... and by attack I would presume “beat in off-road capacity” could be substituted.
 

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I went back through my texts with my buddy, his exact words are that Ford is “Attacking every trim level of the Jeep Wrangler except the base sport.”

“Every trim level” would clearly include the Rubicon... and by attack I would presume “beat in off-road capacity” could be substituted.
Beat in off road capability to some degree would be assumed, yes. That doesn't mean directly spec for spec though, Bronco may still end up with a higher speed raptor style upper trim to fight the Rubicon rather than trying to directly match the Wrangler's rock crawling. Both would be 'high performance offroad SUVs' to the general public. That would still fit with 'attacking' that trim level.
 

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Beat in off road capability to some degree would be assumed, yes. That doesn't mean directly spec for spec though, Bronco may still end up with a higher speed raptor style upper trim to fight the Rubicon rather than trying to directly match the Wrangler's rock crawling. Both would be 'high performance offroad SUVs' to the general public. That would still fit with 'attacking' that trim level.
The problem with that is the short wheelbase that we know the Bronco will have is not good for high speed... and we also know the next gen Ranger raptor is coming to the U.S. a year or two after the bronco. The ranger raptor will definitely be focused on the high speed off road stuff, which would make the Bronco pointless.

Also keep in mind that Jim was probably not aware of the JL Wrangler’s improvements since he has such a big scope. He was likely talking about Bronco vs JK wrangler, but the JL is significantly better at high speeds and more comfortable than a JK was.
 
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Carolina Jim

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the short wheelbase that we know the Bronco will have is not good for high speed
Give me some advice here. Not having seen Bronco in either wheelbase, I've been leaning towards the 2-door, as a daily driver. 90% of my driving is in a small town or the national forest - but a couple of times a month I'll drive 2 hours down the interstate to Atlanta & back. And I'll generally drive 20-odd hours each way to hunt up near the Canadian border each fall.

Which wheelbase do you think meets my needs the best?
 

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Give me some advice here. Not having seen Bronco in either wheelbase, I've been leaning towards the 2-door, as a daily driver. 90% of my driving is in a small town or the national forest - but a couple of times a month I'll drive 2 hours down the interstate to Atlanta & back. And I'll generally drive 20-odd hours each way to hunt up near the Canadian border each fall.

Which wheelbase do you think meets my needs the best?

I might be able to help you out a bit here. I've owned and driven both 2 and 4 door Wranglers. While we aren't comparing oranges to oranges here it probably is the closest thing we have. In my personal experience... 2 doors are much more fun to drive around town. They are zippy and the turn radius on them is a blast. Long distance drives it's nice to have the 4 door for the highway characteristics. (Longer wheel base, heavier and lower center of gravity).
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