Affordable basic transportation models for 4x4 vehicles

[rak2]

[WARNING - long post]

I have a belief that the auto manufacturers that produce capable 4x4 vehicles are missing out on an important market segment by failing to provide 4x4 models/trims/variants that are much less expensive since they do not include non-essential software and electronic 'bells and whistles' features.

The concept would be to take something like the Ford Bronco Black Diamond or Jeep Wrangler Willys and leave out all of the entertainment, convenience, and yes even advanced driving features that involve the use of chips and software.

For my taste the only user comfort feature that would need to be retained is air conditioning (I'm old...).

The theory is that a substantial savings on initial purchase of a new vehicle with a good 4x4 capability could find a wide market among customers who currently make do with a (very) used vehicle that may not the 4x4 capability that the customer would like to have.

Talking about:

1- The two car household (or those who would like to have 2 cars) where a 'nice family car' is needed to take everyone in the household on longer trips and the entertainment and convenience features are helpful and desired. But, a second car is also needed and that second car is usually an older/used model often relegated to the 'beater' 'daily driver' role. This is often the husband's go-to-work vehicle and general get-dirty vehicle for hauling garden supplies etc.

For many of these customers, having a good 4x4 capability in this second vehicle could be highly desired because of a need to:
- be able to get to more remote areas for fishing, hunting, camping etc.
- be able to better operate in poor weather conditions such as snow that the family car cannot handle.
- have the ability add a tow bar to this second vehicle if needed.
- have the second car be a new model with warranty support, less maintenance expense, and far more reliability than the old/used beater car option.

2- Another scenario where a less expensive basic transportation model could be highly desirable is when the household has new (teenage) drivers and there is a desire to provide them with safe and reliable (new vehicle) transportation but no interest in providing entertainment system driving distractions and other distractions operating non-essential bells and whistles features. With the statistical probability of the new drivers having more accidents, it could be highly beneficial to have reduced repair or replacement costs (lower insurance also?) for a vehicle with fewer expensive electronic components. Add to this the probability that customers in this good-cheap-vehicle for the teenagers would also desire the 4x4 features and uses mentioned in #1 above.

3- Other scenarios that might justify purchase of a now-more-affordable 4x4 vehicle might include:
- those with farming or a family farm situation.
- those with First Responder (Fire, Police, Medical, EMT) responsibilities, especially in remote or weather challenged areas.
- those with occupations involving travel to unpaved or poorly maintained roads.
- Preppers and Minimalists who want to avoid the issues and expense of unnecessary electronics.


There seem to be some risks associated with the use of chips and software in automobiles.

One price to pay is the probability that so many chips and electronic features are being added to vehicles just for the sake of increasing the overall cost (profit). It seems that the manufacturers have great skill in configuring the trim lines so that you have to pay for several things that you do NOT want in order to get one thing/feature that you do want. Although I feel abused, there are market forces/balances in play, and the manufacturer and I will both suffer when I cannot justify the purchase.

Meanwhile, are there follow-on dangers with being loaded up with so many chips and software components?
1. Won't the repair costs and insurance premiums go up with the increase costs of repairing the electronic components from an accident?
2. Do the manufacturer's really have the skill sets and corporate standards to produce reliable chip and software components? It seems we are seeing some issues being reported. Even if they get better, Even if they get to be perfect, how many vehicles will we have that have hidden software gremlins and sudden-death time bombs? How long will it take for the manufacturers to get-up-to-speed and produce durable and reliable electronic components.
3. What are the risks of obsolescence with these new software/chip components and features. What will you have to work with 10 or 15 (or fewer) years from now if a component dies on your beloved 4x4 and that component is no longer being manufactured and the chip design and/or software was proprietary (exclusively owned) and/or there are no companies or programmers interested in building this component for the few buyers of your model in that model year?
4. What are your expectations for your local dealership being able to troubleshoot and repair complex electronics?
5. What is the risk that software/feature subscriptions (monthly payments for service) broaden to include essential operating and drivability features with permanent on-going expenses?
6. What are the future risks associated with extensive electronics and 'connectivity' features and the possibility of:
- location, travel history, and personal data capture by a vendor or hacker?
- increased car thefts?
- vehicle immobilization by hackers with associated ransom demands. Think of everything wrong with computers applied to your car.
- The conspiracy theorists are right scenarios with government (yours or others) disabling your car.

Note: My personal standard is that there should never be a non-essential, lesser valued feature that when it fails causes an essential or more important feature to fail also. This should never, never be allowed and manufacturers that allow this have committed a mortal sin. My car should not be 'bricked' because the network connections failed to update software related to the windshield wiper.

Back to the central theme about a no-frills, bare-bones, basic transportation 4x4.
Are some of you old enough to remember the Volkswagen Beetle era of the 1960's 1970's ??
This car was small, ugly, underpowered, and foreign (which had more negative stigma at the time).
Yet they sold a bazillion of them in the U.S.
There were often more than one non-dealership VW repair and modification shops that popped up in every city. They became something of a cult item and were often highly modified.

My impression is that they sold so well because they were very affordable basic transportation and many people were willing to do without the fancy features of the more expensive (domestic) alternatives available at the time.

Isn't it true that one of the core appeals of the Ford Bronco is it's image as bare-bones but capable transportation (from the 1970s)? Aren't there people willing to pay hundreds of thousands of dollars to restore an early model Bronco (and still not have a single computer chip in them)?
Isn't the current Bronco charging head-long away from that minimalist heritage of long ago (but baits you in with the name and body design)?
And similarly is not a core appeal of the Jeep Wrangler the no-frills transportation image from as far back at the 1940s?


I do not have a clever and smart-ass remark to close this out. Have been wanting a Jeep Wrangler since before 2008 or a Bronco since they were announced but have not been able to talk myself into either. Saved up the money and now don't know what to do. I'm a little sad and depressed.

RAK2

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[Spooled]

I didn't read your post, but I'm guessing you wish there was a more bare-bones offroader available.

Me too. This is why I really wish Suzuki sold the Jimny here. I'd have one. Cheap, light, and with minimal tech.

 

[ChrisB351]

TLDR

 

[Lowcountry Bronco]

Honestly I didn't read everything you wrote but you can mark some of the tech to the government regulations and safety tests. Seems that all the warnings replaced actually being able to see out of your vehicle vice accepting an all good from your mirror sensor that no one's in the next lane. I agree with what I read though, a low-tech vehicle would be fine for most and allot less troublesome which in turn drives up recalls and costs!

 

[Mdozier]

There's always this route:

 

[GToddC5]

There's always this route:

Yep , but also another vote for the Jimny!

 

[Fordified1]

My understanding is Ford makes a lot of money off the extras and has no interest in a selling a stripped down version with less profit margin for them.
I didn’t read the whole post, but pretty much agree and I would be a buyer.

Maybe eventually when sales decline we’ll see something, but Ford probably sees the Sport as the avenue for that sales target.

I just bought this as our beat-around 4-wheeler. Has the reliable inline-six and A/C.

 

[ABorges]

[WARNING - long post]

I have a belief that the auto manufacturers that produce capable 4x4 vehicles are missing out on an important market segment by failing to provide 4x4 models/trims/variants that are much less expensive since they do not include non-essential software and electronic 'bells and whistles' features.

The concept would be to take something like the Ford Bronco Black Diamond or Jeep Wrangler Willys and leave out all of the entertainment, convenience, and yes even advanced driving features that involve the use of chips and software.

For my taste the only user comfort feature that would need to be retained is air conditioning (I'm old...).

The theory is that a substantial savings on initial purchase of a new vehicle with a good 4x4 capability could find a wide market among customers who currently make do with a (very) used vehicle that may not the 4x4 capability that the customer would like to have.

Talking about:

1- The two car household (or those who would like to have 2 cars) where a 'nice family car' is needed to take everyone in the household on longer trips and the entertainment and convenience features are helpful and desired. But, a second car is also needed and that second car is usually an older/used model often relegated to the 'beater' 'daily driver' role. This is often the husband's go-to-work vehicle and general get-dirty vehicle for hauling garden supplies etc.

For many of these customers, having a good 4x4 capability in this second vehicle could be highly desired because of a need to:
- be able to get to more remote areas for fishing, hunting, camping etc.
- be able to better operate in poor weather conditions such as snow that the family car cannot handle.
- have the ability add a tow bar to this second vehicle if needed.
- have the second car be a new model with warranty support, less maintenance expense, and far more reliability than the old/used beater car option.

2- Another scenario where a less expensive basic transportation model could be highly desirable is when the household has new (teenage) drivers and there is a desire to provide them with safe and reliable (new vehicle) transportation but no interest in providing entertainment system driving distractions and other distractions operating non-essential bells and whistles features. With the statistical probability of the new drivers having more accidents, it could be highly beneficial to have reduced repair or replacement costs (lower insurance also?) for a vehicle with fewer expensive electronic components. Add to this the probability that customers in this good-cheap-vehicle for the teenagers would also desire the 4x4 features and uses mentioned in #1 above.

3- Other scenarios that might justify purchase of a now-more-affordable 4x4 vehicle might include:
- those with farming or a family farm situation.
- those with First Responder (Fire, Police, Medical, EMT) responsibilities, especially in remote or weather challenged areas.
- those with occupations involving travel to unpaved or poorly maintained roads.
- Preppers and Minimalists who want to avoid the issues and expense of unnecessary electronics.


There seem to be some risks associated with the use of chips and software in automobiles.

One price to pay is the probability that so many chips and electronic features are being added to vehicles just for the sake of increasing the overall cost (profit). It seems that the manufacturers have great skill in configuring the trim lines so that you have to pay for several things that you do NOT want in order to get one thing/feature that you do want. Although I feel abused, there are market forces/balances in play, and the manufacturer and I will both suffer when I cannot justify the purchase.

Meanwhile, are there follow-on dangers with being loaded up with so many chips and software components?
1. Won't the repair costs and insurance premiums go up with the increase costs of repairing the electronic components from an accident?
2. Do the manufacturer's really have the skill sets and corporate standards to produce reliable chip and software components? It seems we are seeing some issues being reported. Even if they get better, Even if they get to be perfect, how many vehicles will we have that have hidden software gremlins and sudden-death time bombs? How long will it take for the manufacturers to get-up-to-speed and produce durable and reliable electronic components.
3. What are the risks of obsolescence with these new software/chip components and features. What will you have to work with 10 or 15 (or fewer) years from now if a component dies on your beloved 4x4 and that component is no longer being manufactured and the chip design and/or software was proprietary (exclusively owned) and/or there are no companies or programmers interested in building this component for the few buyers of your model in that model year?
4. What are your expectations for your local dealership being able to troubleshoot and repair complex electronics?
5. What is the risk that software/feature subscriptions (monthly payments for service) broaden to include essential operating and drivability features with permanent on-going expenses?
6. What are the future risks associated with extensive electronics and 'connectivity' features and the possibility of:
- location, travel history, and personal data capture by a vendor or hacker?
- increased car thefts?
- vehicle immobilization by hackers with associated ransom demands. Think of everything wrong with computers applied to your car.
- The conspiracy theorists are right scenarios with government (yours or others) disabling your car.

Note: My personal standard is that there should never be a non-essential, lesser valued feature that when it fails causes an essential or more important feature to fail also. This should never, never be allowed and manufacturers that allow this have committed a mortal sin. My car should not be 'bricked' because the network connections failed to update software related to the windshield wiper.

Back to the central theme about a no-frills, bare-bones, basic transportation 4x4.
Are some of you old enough to remember the Volkswagen Beetle era of the 1960's 1970's ??
This car was small, ugly, underpowered, and foreign (which had more negative stigma at the time).
Yet they sold a bazillion of them in the U.S.
There were often more than one non-dealership VW repair and modification shops that popped up in every city. They became something of a cult item and were often highly modified.

My impression is that they sold so well because they were very affordable basic transportation and many people were willing to do without the fancy features of the more expensive (domestic) alternatives available at the time.

Isn't it true that one of the core appeals of the Ford Bronco is it's image as bare-bones but capable transportation (from the 1970s)? Aren't there people willing to pay hundreds of thousands of dollars to restore an early model Bronco (and still not have a single computer chip in them)?
Isn't the current Bronco charging head-long away from that minimalist heritage of long ago (but baits you in with the name and body design)?
And similarly is not a core appeal of the Jeep Wrangler the no-frills transportation image from as far back at the 1940s?


I do not have a clever and smart-ass remark to close this out. Have been wanting a Jeep Wrangler since before 2008 or a Bronco since they were announced but have not been able to talk myself into either. Saved up the money and now don't know what to do. I'm a little sad and depressed.

RAK2

Sorry, I didn't read the whole thing, sounds like to me, you need to find something used and older and do an engine swap and suspension upgrade and make it your own with the money you have saved up.

 

[WarthogJr]

My understanding is Ford makes a lot of money off the extras and has no interest in a selling a stripped down version with less profit margin for them.
I didn’t read the whole post, but pretty much agree and I would be a buyer.

Maybe eventually when sales decline we’ll see something, but Ford probably sees the Sport as the avenue for that sales target.

I just bought this as our beat-around 4-wheeler. Has the reliable inline-six and A/C.

Yep, profit margin on base vehicles is super low. Each “feature” adds a lot of incremental profit. What benefits the manufacturer the most financially is what takes priority.

 

[broadicustomworks]

We met a fella in his 70's at the end of our Uwharrie day who was driving a late 80's Samurai.
He waved us past him on the entrance/exit gravel road, promptly sped up once I was past him, pulled in beside me at the end there where I was going to air up.
It's one of those times that ended up well worth the time it "cost" me to converse with a stranger who pretty much ended up being someone who wanted someone to share some time with and listen to his stories.
Long story short, he was admiring the Bronco, we talked about it some, but mainly just talked about his experiences in his Zuke, how he could throw a tarp under it and change the driveshaft out in less than a few minutes, always carrying a spare shaft and 4 u-joints with him when he goes out.
And he loved every minute of it.
Brought back some of that nostalgia for simple machines that just work (most of the time), and when they don't, it's something one can usually repair fairly quickly if parts are readily available.
To be fair it also brought back how much I hated lying in cold mud/snow replacing a U joint in the dark.

But I get it.
There are several use-cases for a simple 4X4. You mentioned a good cross section of them.
But I fear those days are gone.
At least, in a new vehicle we can get into state-side.
It would be really nice to be able to get that budget-friendly, tech-minimal rough-and-tumble offroader in a new vehicle.
Give me a new vehicle with some manual windows, manual 2-speed transfer case, in-line N/A 6 cyl, capability to mount and run at least 35" tires, and let me 'venture.

 

[BeachTiger]

Only skimmed but concur with most other comments. So much of the baked in cost of a new vehicle are all the government mandated safety features. And to be sure, there's not much of a market for a low volume stripper model of anything in the USA. To wit, what would be the closest thing we could imagine that's actually for sale:

(1.) Mahindra Roxor - base model with no top or windshield 21K. Well equipped 30K (essentially a UTV).

(2.) Suzuki Jimny - base price in Mexico 27K.

I suspect the price range you were thinking of is something much less than above and/or with more features.

 

[AZ_Liberty]

Ford tried selling a more stripped down version, the Base. It sold too well, so they discontinued it.

The corporate bean-counters see base models as cannibalizing sales from higher trims.

 

[Tmurder1776]

I think my build is about as close to this as they come. 30k and some dealer discounts and I have a pretty decent base model that's capable of a lot of trails but also gets about 24mpg on my daily commute.

 

[brkdncr]

Holy TLDR.

Why would ford want to spend $20k to sell at $25k when they can spend $30k to sell at $45k?

how many sales are you expecting? 2000? Would it be worth the extra effort to send a product down the factory line that in many locations doesn’t get touched?

I can appreciate the desire for such a vehicle, but maybe a road-going side by side is the answer?

 

[MadMan4BamaNATL]

Although this is a cute and romanticized idea, fact is, the modern stuff is, well, because it’s modern and then there are the safety requirements that call for the chips.

We have to accept the reality that it is no longer 1975 and although memories get fuzzy over 50 years, truth is that those days weren’t as great as we like to say we remember.

Cars back then were low on power, heavy on rust, thirsty, unreliable, and most would hardly last 10 years without a rebuild or very low mileage.

Don’t get me wrong, the early 70’s Broncos were my favorite. If you want one, then get one. Reason why the cost like they do is because most didn’t survive the times.

There are no time warps and nothing stays the same. The Toyota fan bois are learning this reality at this very moment and they’re struggling with the new order of things.

Is what it is……

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