Full-time 4x4 vs part-time

[NCOBX]

I see, but my question still stands, have you ever driven one (an AWD car under various conditions)? I have, as well as a many 1970's/80's rear wheel drive cars and 2WD/4WD trucks. Saying that a Mustang will do fine is a bit disingenuous. Back in the day we made do with RWD cars with lots of sand in the trunk, I can assure you AWD is pretty darn nice and orders of magnitude better, and certainly not absolute trash.

Does an AMC eagle count?

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[grimmjeeper]

Yeah, and I'll second the recommendation for good tires being almost more important than 4WD. But good tires and 4WD is way better than 2WD. Also, weight over the drive tires makes a huge difference.

I grew up in the upper midwest with rear wheel drive cars. With good snow tires and weight in the trunk, I was able to get around better than average front wheel drive cars when the snow hit. Having the drive tires separate from the tires that steer the car is a good thing but only if you really know how to drive the vehicle. Most people don't have that skill.

I wouldn't say "a Mustang will do fine", but with some blizzaks and a couple hundred pounds of sand in the trunk, you can make it closer to "acceptable" performance.

Still, I'd rather have a full time automatic 4WD system with good tires. Any vehicle with that will drive circles around 2WD cars.

 

[Roger123]

This is where it gets fuzzy, because my onroad scale is different than others.

It takes the county two days to get around to plowing our road, so for all intents and purposes yes it is legally a road but it isn't much different than driving in my cornfield except you don't have wiggle room to go around drifts. Then the state pushes two lanes of snow plus the shoulder across where our gravel road comes uphill to meet the highway. A 8" snow usually equates to about a 18' deep and 4' thick berm to hurdle thru. Welcome to rural living. After my wife (she is originally from Omaha) high centered her AWD crossover up there for the second time I told her "you know, you are not in the suburbs anymore. I think you need to find a different type of vehicle" Even if I break trail for her with the '150, she can't hack that berm.

And that is why we ordered a Bronco...



Lol.

No.

With your F150 you can have your cake (4A) and eat it too (6000# of body on frame construction and huge winter tires). When the drifts get deep there's no substitute for weight, clearance and tires!

 

[NCOBX]

No, no it won't. I've driven a Mustang in the snow and ice and it was mediocre at best. Yes, tires in general do make a huge difference. This is the first statement you've said that seems to be accurate.

Please, please stop posting about this. I tested out my Subaru's AWD in the snow for the first time yesterday and can't say enough good things about it. My wife was even impressed compared to her FWD Nissan Altima. Not really sure what your motivations are but they don't seem to be logic or learning.

I standby what I stated, traditional transfer case AWD is predictable, reliable, and more capable than an electronically controlled AWD like they put in these unibody crossovers.
Most important above all else is tires, I’ve seen 2wd trucks do a lot off-road with tires, sand, and LS/locker. And Mustangs in the snow with proper snow tires.

 

[Roger123]

Does an AMC eagle count?

I have no idea what sort of system they had and have no first hand experience so it's hard to say. I only have driving impressions of Ford, Chevy, Dodge, GMC, Toyota, Honda, Audi, Subaru, and Jeep's systems.

 

[grimmjeeper]

I have no idea what sort of system they had and have no first hand experience so it's hard to say. I only have driving impressions of Ford, Chevy, Dodge, GMC, Toyota, Honda, Audi, Subaru, and Jeep's systems.

They had a traditional transfer case. It was a single speed New Process case similar to a Jeep (Jeep was part of AMC at the time) but with no low range. They all had either an open differential or some kind of limited slip inside the transfer case.

In that regard, they are very similar in function to my 2001 Cherokee with the NP242 transfer case in full time 4WD.

Edit: In fact, the XJ Cherokee (1984-2001) used many design elements stolen from the AMC Eagle parts bin since the same design team designed both vehicles.

 

[Laminar]

You do realize your trying to compare a car to a truck? You could do just as much with a RWD car.

Sorry, who was the first one to bring up Honda and Subaru and compare it to a Hummer?

You don’t sound like you have very much knowledge on the subject.

Poor trolling attempt 2/10.

AWD systems are 60% power to the front wheels and 40% to the rear; the front must have more power in order to turn.

You HAVE to be trolling now, right? Are you confusing torque with wheel speed? Do you even understand how a planetary gearset works? And you realize that the H2's transfer case is 40% front and 60% rear, right?

I’m not sure you want to embarrass yourself after not catching that twice?

Not that you've ever been self-aware enough to feel embarrassment...

The electrically controlled AWD systems are incapable of providing improvement over a drivetrain with one set of powered wheels- Honda, Subaru and all the other front wheel biased AWD manufacturers

Let's pause here real quick - it seems like it hasn't yet sunk in that Subaru and others offer multiple flavors of AWD. One of Subaru's most popular systems is referred to as "Symmetrical AWD" due to the 50/50 front/rear split - it's not front biased. The STI has a mechanical 40/60 front rear torque split (not front biased!) and can also be locked up if the driver pleases. Honda's SH-AWD can send 70% of its power to the rear and its active rear diff can transfer 100% of that power left to right as needed. Again, not front-biased, and with much more flexibility to send power where it can find traction.

will happily take your money for a system that offers little to no improvement over a 2wd vehicle.

Yes, you've done a bang-up job of demonstrating that your opinion on this can be trusted by *checks notes* continually saying wrong things about AWD?

I standby what I stated, traditional transfer case AWD is predictable,

Sure.

reliable,

Sure.

and more capable

Bzzzt. "Traditional transfer case AWD" will always suffer when one axle has significantly less traction than the other, because it cannot transfer power away from that axle, and the amount of power that the other axle can capture is always going to be a fraction of what the engine is delivering. Period.

Most important above all else is tires, I’ve seen 2wd trucks do a lot off-road with tires, sand, and LS/locker. And Mustangs in the snow with proper snow tires.

I currently own FWD, RWD, electronically-controlled AWD, and 4x4 vehicles with proper tires. The AWD crossover crushes the FWD and RWD cars so hard it's not even funny. It's not even close. My RWD and FWD cars have LITERALLY some of the best snow tires out there, and it's not even in the same ballpark, city, or planet as the capability of AWD. The 4x4 truck can dig its way out of anything, but from a standstill on snow-packed or slick surfaces, the AWD crossover will straight up embarrass it.

Now I know you've never actually experienced any of this and have formed your bad takes based on YouTube University and the Hummer forums, so I guess you'll just have to take my word for it.

 

[NCOBX]

Sorry, who was the first one to bring up Honda and Subaru and compare it to a Hummer?



Poor trolling attempt 2/10.



You HAVE to be trolling now, right? Are you confusing torque with wheel speed? Do you even understand how a planetary gearset works? And you realize that the H2's transfer case is 40% front and 60% rear, right?



Not that you've ever been self-aware enough to feel embarrassment...



Let's pause here real quick - it seems like it hasn't yet sunk in that Subaru and others offer multiple flavors of AWD. One of Subaru's most popular systems is referred to as "Symmetrical AWD" due to the 50/50 front/rear split - it's not front biased. The STI has a mechanical 40/60 front rear torque split (not front biased!) and can also be locked up if the driver pleases. Honda's SH-AWD can send 70% of its power to the rear and its active rear diff can transfer 100% of that power left to right as needed. Again, not front-biased, and with much more flexibility to send power where it can find traction.



Yes, you've done a bang-up job of demonstrating that your opinion on this can be trusted by *checks notes* continually saying wrong things about AWD?



Sure.



Sure.



Bzzzt. "Traditional transfer case AWD" will always suffer when one axle has significantly less traction than the other, because it cannot transfer power away from that axle, and the amount of power that the other axle can capture is always going to be a fraction of what the engine is delivering. Period.



I currently own FWD, RWD, electronically-controlled AWD, and 4x4 vehicles with proper tires. The AWD crossover crushes the FWD and RWD cars so hard it's not even funny. It's not even close. My RWD and FWD cars have LITERALLY some of the best snow tires out there, and it's not even in the same ballpark, city, or planet as the capability of AWD. The 4x4 truck can dig its way out of anything, but from a standstill on snow-packed or slick surfaces, the AWD crossover will straight up embarrass it.

Now I know you've never actually experienced any of this and have formed your bad takes based on YouTube University and the Hummer forums, so I guess you'll just have to take my word for it.

Looking back, you first compared a Subaru and Honda to a Hummer, not I. I compared traditional AWD to the electronically controlled poor excuse for AWD on crossovers and front biased cars.

There is no such thing as a 40% front and 60% rear AWD setup.

Your not doing good at this, might want to check your notes some more.

 

[AKBronc49]

Man, reading this whole thing is an entertaining way to blow through a morning.

I'll say this, I own multiple fully mechanical AWD T-case, On demand auto 4x4 and true 4x4 vehicles. they all do fantastic with good dedicated snow tires, which they all run.

My 06 Chrysler 300c uses a Magna Steyr MS140 transfer box with Full time all wheel drive, 38/62 torque split front to rear and it's fantastic.

My 97 Explorer V8 AWD uses a BW-4404 BORG WARNER TRANSFER CASE Viscous drive front and rear 35/65 Torque split that can go 50/50 as needed, it's also fantastic (also nothing but ABS makes it so much fun)

My 11 F150 has the Auto 4x4 setting that detects slip and engages the front drive shaft as needed, I use this setting from October to April every day all day. It works great but you can tell when it's working and it can catch you off guard if the rear slips unexpectedly you will feel it kick out for a split second before the front kicks in. This can be said for any Ford TOD/Auto4x4 systems since 1995 and I've owned a lot of them (Explorers and Expeditions). it typically only happens on the highway when speeding up to make a pass, or going uphill on glare ice roads which we have most of the winter. with that in mind I just pop it into 4high before I think it may slip up.

02 Excursion and 97 F150 are typical part time 4x4 trucks. You have to pay attention during spring/fall or mid winter warm ups or in treated parking lots as to not bind them up. No it isn't a big deal to switch back and forth as needed, but after not having to you get pretty spoiled.

 

[Doc Rocket]

The reason is because it's the base model.

I am still shocked to see people complain about options not being on the base model. The base 2 door model exists so they can market the Bronco starting under 30K. Ford doesn't want you to buy the base, dealers don't want to sell the base. That's why certain options are locked to higher trims.

And a bunch of us on this forum are getting the base 2 door because it is a screaming bargain. The advanced transfer case is available, mandatory with Sasquatch, which does not invalidate the previous comment that there is a big step up in price to get it, but I wanted both. Don't want most of the mid package, and the couple of upgrades in the Big Bend hold a pretty steep price tag for me to get them.

You are correct, that Ford/Ford Dealers will not be too excited about selling it, it is definitely set to be a niche product, and the loss leader. However, for some of us, it is just what we want and nothing else.

 

[Laminar]

Looking back, you first compared a Subaru and Honda to a Hummer, not I. I compared traditional AWD to the electronically controlled poor excuse for AWD on crossovers and front biased cars.

There is no such thing as a 40% front and 60% rear AWD setup.

Your not doing good at this, might want to check your notes some more.

Okay *checks notes*

https://www.transmissiondigest.com/borgwarners-4484-transfer-case-heart-of-the-hummer/

These are not clutch-driven units but are an electronically shifted design using an internal planetary-type differential to achieve a 60/40 torque split rear to front.

https://www.randysworldwide.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/Identifying_BorgWarner_Transfer_Cases.pdf

https://www.e46fanatics.com/attachments/e46xi-pdf.791401/

http://subaruidiots.com/dccd-subaru-sti-explained/

https://mechanics.stackexchange.com...-transfer-case-split-power-between-front-rear

I'm sorry that it's not a YouTube video and you might have to actually read.

 

[grimmjeeper]

That planetary differential in the Hummer case looks similar in concept to the NP242 in my Jeep. I haven't researched it but I wonder if it has a similar torque bias.

 

[Laminar]

NP242 is 48/52 front/rear

https://www.novak-adapt.com/knowledge/transfer-cases/np242

So you can't turn at all, apparently.

 

[BAUS67]

There is no such thing as a 40% front and 60% rear AWD setup.

My 06 Chrysler 300c uses a Magna Steyr MS140 transfer box with Full time all wheel drive, 38/62 torque split front to rear and it's fantastic.

HHHMMMM, does anyone else see the conudrum here. any this is why you all see these posted.....








I'm just saying.

 

[AKBronc49]

HHHMMMM, does anyone else see the conudrum here. any this is why you all see these posted.....

I'm just saying.

Just a fact.

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