Full-time 4x4 vs part-time

[NCOBX]

How do you think ESOF transfer cases work? Hint: clutches.



It definitely helps steer. My F150 will push like crazy when trying to turn in slick conditions. The only way to turn the thing is to give it some throttle and get the front wheels to help pull the front end around.



While rock crawling, sure. If you're going to be putting tires up in the air, you need all four wheels locked together with a locking transfer case and front and rear lockers. There's a reason the Raptor's "Weather" mode engages 4A.



LOL

I guess I have to really go back to fundamentals with you. A locked transfer case is only advantageous offroad, so trying to denigrate road cars for not having locking transfer cases is disingenuous. Let's also not forget that Subaru DOES offer a locking center differential in its...wait for it...offroad rally-inspired car, the STI.

Next up - a fixed ratio full-time F/R transfer case is NOT ideal. There's a reason basically no automakers use them anymore, they limit the vehicle's ability to transfer power where it can be used and ultimately results in reduced performance. BMW's first xDrive system used a similar 40:60 F:R planetary like the BW 4484, 4493, and 4494 in the H2/H3. They very quickly switched to electronic engagement for a significant increase in capability.



In nowhere but your weird world is a "true transfer case" some kind of requirement for "true AWD." That's a really weird place to assert a No True Scotsman fallacy. And to pull from your previous detractions, both Subaru and Honda offer AWD systems with dynamic front/rear torque split, and even the ability to proactively transfer power between the two rear wheels - Subaru has DCCD and Honda has i-VTM4. That's something an open/locked diff can never do, so it will always be less capable of finding traction than one that is actively varied.

Yes, a locked transfer case and locked front/rear axles are optimal for rock crawling or mud-bogging, but that's not what AWD systems are designed to do. So calling AWD systems "not true" because they can't do something they weren't designed to do is like getting mad at your dog because he can't fly.

In every condition outside of severe offroad wheel-in-the-air use, an active AWD system has a significant advantage over a fully locked or a constant-torque-split system. Heck, any well-tuned Haldex system would absolutely lay waste to your H2 on a snowy road.

Please explain to me how a AWD transfer case does 40:60 F:R without blowing the hell up the first time the steer wheels are turned 20 degrees, Impress me.

Quite the misnomer where their marketing says they proactively transfer power, it’s not proactive if it’s transferring power based on needs it’s reactive which goes against the whole purpose of AWD.

I implore you to go on YouTube and look at reviews of Honda’s AWD setup where users get one rear wheel on a slick spot in a grassy wheel and lose all forward motion. What use is that? Non transfer case AWD systems are absolute trash, their capabilities end the moment the computers lose sense of the situation. They have no use in the real world and are 100% an emotional purchase as is Subarus safety campaign.

The only reason to use electronic controlled AWD is cost, it’s exponentially cheaper which means more room for profits.

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[reidski29]

Agree to disagree.

A4 is a proven convenience and safety capability that I personally have enjoyed having. My current f150 does not have it and there are plenty of times in inclement weather where I’m either Switching back and forth as I hit pavement and snow, or just leaving it in 2H to not accidentally leave it in 4H on a dry section of road, but wishing I was in 4x4. Leaving it in A4 is just really convenient day to day in snowy climates that aren’t 100% covered all season, and diverts power in a very smart and effective manner that’s beyond the capability of some standard 4x4 systems. It’s definitely not necessary for off roading, it’s really for inclement weather where you aren’t in consistent conditions.

I am right there with you. The A4wd option gets used for all winter driving in my Expedition and I use the 4wd for any type of offroad situation. the A4wd is a set it and forget it type of thing that makes the vehicle much easier to drive on the street during snowfall without having to worry about binding and wearing down your 4wd when you just have some ice spots, or snow on the road but don't want to slip out in just rear wheel drive.

Then I absolutely love some good snow over the roadway, my all terrain tires in the expedition, traction control off so I can do a controlled fish-tail in 2wd around turns at low speeds

 

[Raptor911]

speaking of an AWD in a truck .. The TRX is AWD and gets about 11mpg on the highway. Granted .. it does have a supercharged V8

 

[Big Boss]

Or OBX. Question really is is moving up to BD or OBX or BB sas worth the cost ??? Especially if you only really want the adv 4x4 add-on.

For me it was, I was debating between Big Bend and OBX. Yes a few other things helped push me to OBX, but the Adv 4x4 was one of the main

don’t be too shocked. It’s common

common for people to complain about base models not having options? Seems like that only happens around here lol

 

[Laminar]

Please explain to me how a AWD transfer case does 40:60 F:R without blowing the hell up the first time the steer wheels are turned 20 degrees, Impress me.

Because of...slip? Your question doesn't even make sense.

Quite the misnomer where their marketing says they proactively transfer power, it’s not proactive if it’s transferring power based on needs it’s reactive which goes against the whole purpose of AWD.

I realize you live in a binary on/off good/bad world, but have you considered that it can do...BOTH? The vehicle can react to changing conditions, but it can also move power around based on throttle and steering angle to get the car to do exactly what it needs to. A locked or a constant torque split can do neither of those things.

I implore you to go on YouTube and look at reviews of Honda’s AWD setup where users get one rear wheel on a slick spot in a grassy wheel and lose all forward motion. What use is that?

Which AWD setup? Again, you live in a very simple world with "Honda AWD" and "Subaru AWD" without realizing that both automakers use a variety of systems and methods. A video where "Honda AWD" fails means nothing. Was it some variant of SH-AWD? Was it i-VTM4? Was it "automatic AWD?" Go look up diagonal tests of the Passport with i-VMT4 - it does just fine.

Non transfer case AWD systems are absolute trash, their capabilities end the moment the computers lose sense of the situation.

It must really hurt getting passed over and over again by "absolute trash."

They have no use in the real world and are 100% an emotional purchase

Wow, it's a good thing you're not emotional about this at all. Again, it's gotta be rough having "no use in the real world" just continue to run away from you at every stoplight.

The only reason to use electronic controlled AWD is cost, it’s exponentially cheaper which means more room for profits.

Oh and now you hate capitalism, too?

 

[85_Ranger4x4]

Either 4A engagement will be seamless with no perceptible change in driving dynamic... which means it’s doing a magical job and making your drive as safe as it would be without these driving condition concerns.

Or.

You’ll feel something in your seat and you’ll get the feedback you’re used to... just in a more safe manner.

You’ve been driving long enough to know what the conditions are so it’s unlikely you’d get caught off guard because of the existence of 4A. It will be just another tool (like traction control, anti-roll, ABS, etc) to help keep you safe.

$0.02

Mom's old Explorer was pretty seemless unless you were horsing around, my wife's Edge is seamless, I have never felt it do anything until the TC starts taking muh power away.

Of all those things you mention, my dd (2002 F-150) only has ABS lol.

It definitely helps steer. My F150 will push like crazy when trying to turn in slick conditions. The only way to turn the thing is to give it some throttle and get the front wheels to help pull the front end around.

At speed, probably not so much. Especially if you are not in the throttle going around a curve or something like that. I just reach down and lock the S-Foils in attack position and go, no biggie.

I guess I have to really go back to fundamentals with you. A locked transfer case is only advantageous offroad, so trying to denigrate road cars for not having locking transfer cases is disingenuous. Let's also not forget that Subaru DOES offer a locking center differential in its...wait for it...offroad rally-inspired car, the STI.

Next up - a fixed ratio full-time F/R transfer case is NOT ideal. There's a reason basically no automakers use them anymore, they limit the vehicle's ability to transfer power where it can be used and ultimately results in reduced performance. BMW's first xDrive system used a similar 40:60 F:R planetary like the BW 4484, 4493, and 4494 in the H2/H3. They very quickly switched to electronic engagement for a significant increase in capability.

Land Cruiser doesn't seem to have much trouble finding homes for their trucks with a open/locking diff in the t-case. But the environment in Africa and Australia is different than NA too... no snow but there isn't a service station every 5 miles if you have an issue either.

Never been around a "true" fulltime 4wd, the kind with a lockable diff in the t-case.

It must really hurt getting passed over and over again by "absolute trash."

The worst metric ever to compare winter driving effectiveness. I am 110% positive I could be doing 60mph on a snow mobile on packed snow/ice and somebody in a Civic or similar would pass me. The fact that he is driving fast doesn't necessarily mean he has a super awesome vehicle, it could just mean he is an idiot.

I live in the country, when I slow down it is generally because:
A: I can hardly see past my grille guard
B: I keep losing track of where the road is
C: It is stupid slick.

The last storm it was all three plus drifts...

 

[Laminar]

Land Cruiser doesn't seem to have much trouble finding homes for their trucks with a open/locking diff in the t-case. But the environment in Africa and Australia is different than NA too... no snow but there isn't a service station every 5 miles if you have an issue either.

I'm not knocking the capability of a locking transfer case in the environment it was designed for - offroad. I'm only saying that systems designed for maximum on-road performance should be judged by (wait for it) their on-road performance. Crazy, right?

 

[NCOBX]

Because of...slip? Your question doesn't even make sense.



I realize you live in a binary on/off good/bad world, but have you considered that it can do...BOTH? The vehicle can react to changing conditions, but it can also move power around based on throttle and steering angle to get the car to do exactly what it needs to. A locked or a constant torque split can do neither of those things.



Which AWD setup? Again, you live in a very simple world with "Honda AWD" and "Subaru AWD" without realizing that both automakers use a variety of systems and methods. A video where "Honda AWD" fails means nothing. Was it some variant of SH-AWD? Was it i-VTM4? Was it "automatic AWD?" Go look up diagonal tests of the Passport with i-VMT4 - it does just fine.



It must really hurt getting passed over and over again by "absolute trash."



Wow, it's a good thing you're not emotional about this at all. Again, it's gotta be rough having "no use in the real world" just continue to run away from you at every stoplight.



Oh and now you hate capitalism, too?

You do realize your trying to compare a car to a truck? You could do just as much with a RWD car.

You don’t sound like you have very much knowledge on the subject. AWD systems are 60% power to the front wheels and 40% to the rear; the front must have more power in order to turn. I’m not sure you want to embarrass yourself after not catching that twice?

The electrically controlled AWD systems are incapable of providing improvement over a drivetrain with one set of powered wheels- Honda, Subaru and all the other front wheel biased AWD manufacturers will happily take your money for a system that offers little to no improvement over a 2wd vehicle. Without a proper transfer case your wasting your money.

 

[Judge Rufus]

not available on base model for some reason

 

[Roger123]

I implore you to go on YouTube and look at reviews of Honda’s AWD setup where users get one rear wheel on a slick spot in a grassy wheel and lose all forward motion. What use is that? Non transfer case AWD systems are absolute trash, their capabilities end the moment the computers lose sense of the situation. They have no use in the real world and are 100% an emotional purchase as is Subarus safety campaign.

I hate to get in the middle of a good pissing contest but have you ever driven a Honda in the snow or just watched YouTube videos? Our experiences can't be further from opposite of each other. My Pilot was a beast in snow and it was old tech from '03. Our Audi was great as well and my parents CRV and Forrester are also fabulous.

Having grown up in the UP and still having many, many relatives there with AWD cars, we are not on the same page here with AWD being absolute trash, quite the contrary to a lot of real world experience.

Edited to add that my Pilot would run circles around my three previous Broncos (up to about 3 feet of snow anyway where ground clearance would become the main issue), 2 Gen 1's and a Gen 2.

 

[NCOBX]

I hate to get in the middle of a good pissing contest but have you ever driven a Honda in the snow or just watched YouTube videos? Our experiences can't be further from opposite of each other. My Pilot was a beast in snow and it was old tech from '03. Our Audi was great as well and my parents CRV and Forrester are also fabulous.

Having grown up in the UP and still having many, many relatives there with AWD cars, we are not on the same page here with AWD being absolute trash, quite the contrary to a lot of real world experience.

Edited to add that my Pilot would run circles around my three previous Broncos (up to about 3 feet of snow anyway where ground clearance would become the main issue), 2 Gen 1's and a Gen 2.

I wouldn’t put myself in the situation personally, I see enough AWD crossovers stuck in situations I would expect of an open diff 2wd long bed truck. Snow is a bigger issue of having the correct tires, with the right tires a Mustang will do fine In snow.

 

[Roger123]

I wouldn’t put myself in the situation personally, I see enough AWD crossovers stuck in situations I would expect of an open diff 2wd long bed truck. Snow is a bigger issue of having the correct tires, with the right tires a Mustang will do fine In snow.

I see, but my question still stands, have you ever driven one (an AWD car under various conditions)? I have, as well as a many 1970's/80's rear wheel drive cars and 2WD/4WD trucks. Saying that a Mustang will do fine is a bit disingenuous. Back in the day we made do with RWD cars with lots of sand in the trunk, I can assure you AWD is pretty darn nice and orders of magnitude better, and certainly not absolute trash.

 

[Austin26]

I wouldn’t put myself in the situation personally, I see enough AWD crossovers stuck in situations I would expect of an open diff 2wd long bed truck. Snow is a bigger issue of having the correct tires, with the right tires a Mustang will do fine In snow.

No, no it won't. I've driven a Mustang in the snow and ice and it was mediocre at best. Yes, tires in general do make a huge difference. This is the first statement you've said that seems to be accurate.

You do realize your trying to compare a car to a truck? You could do just as much with a RWD car.

You don’t sound like you have very much knowledge on the subject. AWD systems are 60% power to the front wheels and 40% to the rear; the front must have more power in order to turn. I’m not sure you want to embarrass yourself after not catching that twice?

The electrically controlled AWD systems are incapable of providing improvement over a drivetrain with one set of powered wheels- Honda, Subaru and all the other front wheel biased AWD manufacturers will happily take your money for a system that offers little to no improvement over a 2wd vehicle. Without a proper transfer case your wasting your money.

Please, please stop posting about this. I tested out my Subaru's AWD in the snow for the first time yesterday and can't say enough good things about it. My wife was even impressed compared to her FWD Nissan Altima. Not really sure what your motivations are but they don't seem to be logic or learning.

 

[85_Ranger4x4]

I'm not knocking the capability of a locking transfer case in the environment it was designed for - offroad. I'm only saying that systems designed for maximum on-road performance should be judged by (wait for it) their on-road performance. Crazy, right?

This is where it gets fuzzy, because my onroad scale is different than others.

It takes the county two days to get around to plowing our road, so for all intents and purposes yes it is legally a road but it isn't much different than driving in my cornfield except you don't have wiggle room to go around drifts. Then the state pushes two lanes of snow plus the shoulder across where our gravel road comes uphill to meet the highway. A 8" snow usually equates to about a 18' deep and 4' thick berm to hurdle thru. Welcome to rural living. After my wife (she is originally from Omaha) high centered her AWD crossover up there for the second time I told her "you know, you are not in the suburbs anymore. I think you need to find a different type of vehicle" Even if I break trail for her with the '150, she can't hack that berm.

And that is why we ordered a Bronco...

Snow is a bigger issue of having the correct tires, with the right tires a Mustang will do fine In snow.

Lol.

No.

 

[grimmjeeper]

I have a 2001 Jeep Cherokee as my snow capable vehicle right now. It has an NP242 transfer case. It comes with 5 modes: 2HI/4HI part time/4HI full time/N/4Lo part time.

The case has an open differential in it that lets the front and rear shafts spin at different speeds. That differential is locked when shifted into part time (hi or lo). So I have the choice to run 4wd on the road in mixed conditions without worrying about binding up. And when I'm driving around in a snow storm, it's the mode I use. When I go off road I put it in part time and get the benefit of having the case lock the front and rear driveshafts together.

With the TrueTrac differentials front and rear along with the good tires (Duratracs), the Jeep does great in even heavy snow. I get around just fine even when going down the interstate with patches of snow and/or ice. I also get around the moderate to mildly difficult trails here in Colorado pretty well. The 32" tires limit me from hitting the bigger, harder trails where you need differential lockers, but that's just fine. I have another Jeep built for that.

But as good as this Jeep does in the snow, I still prefer driving my 2019 Subaru on slick roads. Why? The AWD system in the Subaru is so much more advanced. The vehicle is more stable when I hit unpredictable traction. An old schook Jeep or truck with limited slip differentials in the axles and an open diff in the transfer case is good but it just can't beat the computer controlled systems available today. And that includes the Bronco with the 4A system. It's a big part of the reason why I'm considering selling both the Jeep and the Subaru and replacing them with a Bronco.

Sure, I love manually shifted twin stick (or more) transfer cases in my rock crawler. I like having my selectable diff lockers also. I can make my Jeep do some pretty incredible things.

But when I'm out on the roads or even on mild trails, it's hard to make any kind of argument for the old school 4WD systems over modern computer controlled automatic 4WD systems.

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