Steering impossible while off-camber

[Arokcrwlr]

This is a short little trail called Rocker Panel Pass where you crawl over very slippery boulders while trying not to slip and smash your rig to pieces on the car sized boulders scattered around the area.

It's rated a 9 in most trail books/websites and is a bit worse than normal right now as all the sand around the giant boulders is washed out. You will see angles close to 40 degrees and it gets REAL tippy, depending on the amount of flex your vehicle has and your comfort using rock sliders to pivot. The factory rock sliders can handle it just fine but leave little room for error.

To put things in perspective, that boulder on the right is bigger than my Bronco. Same rock, just a bit closer. In this photo, my passenger rock slider is supporting the vehicle as I slide across a boulder that dwarfs my 37s. People mistakenly stack rocks on the downside near the boulder thinking it helps with the angle, but really it just increases the likelihood you slip and smash your rig.

If you head this way, let me know! I do snow wheeling out in Eastern AZ near a tiny little town called Alpine. You can easily hit 10K+ feet elevation and there will generally be feet of snow up in the mountains by that time to mess around in.

Arizona is one state that I haven't wheeled in yet. I have friends there and my son used to live in Tucson, but never hit any trails. Looks like in need to add it to the list.

BTW, sorry to go off topic here, but your bronco is badass. What lights are those on the bumper?

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[Theherofails]

Arizona is one state that I haven't wheeled in yet. I have friends there and my son used to live in Tucson, but never hit any trails. Looks like in need to add it to the list.

BTW, sorry to go off topic here, but your bronco is badass. What lights are those on the bumper?

I’m testing those for the manufacturer through a program with Amazon. The company is Nilight and these are their 9” pod lights. I think MSRP is only about $250? They’ll be on Amazon. Includes a quality harness with DT connectors.

My entire Bronco is fitted out with Rigid for lighting except these 9” pods, but honestly - these things are really good quality for the price. No clue on longevity yet as I’ve only had them on for about 60 days, but so far - flawless

The bottom LEDS are diffused, so they work as both spotlights and ditch lighting up close. They’re bright as HELL. That light bar is the Rigid 40” ADAPT GPS series that retails for almost $3,000 and it just doesn’t have the power of the 9” pods. They work great in tandem though as the light bar actually changes beam pattern based on speed and I can keep it a bit wider now for most side lighting.

The other nice thing is they fit the factory mod bumper but I did add a nutsert to the bumper to get a second bronco bolt in to keep them stable. They sit flush to the front of the bumper and still leave about a half inch of adjustment between the light and grille.

So far, I fully recommend them as a cheaper alternative to the big brands.

 

[moab6g]

Absolutely. My goal with this thread is to find the solution, not beat on Ford. 37s tires are MASSIVE. We shouldn't lose sight of what we are discussing here.. This happened on a 9 rated trail, which a vast - VAST majority of people will never (nor should ever) do.

You're not getting through this with a factory Sasquatch Bronco, so the entire thing really is in the realm of insanity to begin with. Even on 37s and an Icon coil-over lift, it still required heavy use of rock sliders and a lot of faith in God (no athiests in a foxhole).. With that said, I still have no good idea on what the long term fix is other than taking frequent breaks to let the steering cool. BroncBuster bushings/billet aluminum cap? Hoss 3.0 steering rack? Who knows..

Nice pic,,,, Where is that trail,,,,, look fun,,,, Do you video or YouTube Channel I can watch

 

[Arokcrwlr]

Are these them?
https://www.amazon.com/Nilight-Offr...mzn1.fos.18ed3cb5-28d5-4975-8bc7-93deae8f9840

 

[Mattwings]

Absolutely. My goal with this thread is to find the solution, not beat on Ford. 37s tires are MASSIVE. We shouldn't lose sight of what we are discussing here.. This happened on a 9 rated trail, which a vast - VAST majority of people will never (nor should ever) do.

You're not getting through this with a factory Sasquatch Bronco, so the entire thing really is in the realm of insanity to begin with. Even on 37s and an Icon coil-over lift, it still required heavy use of rock sliders and a lot of faith in God (no athiests in a foxhole).. With that said, I still have no good idea on what the long term fix is other than taking frequent breaks to let the steering cool. BroncBuster bushings/billet aluminum cap? Hoss 3.0 steering rack? Who knows..

I’m not sure if this was posted in the thread, but it’s some interesting details and context from the originator of Broncbuster. I learned stuff listening in (the hosts are pretty cool too, they came to one of our MI Bronco Club events).

 

[Theherofails]

Are these them?
https://www.amazon.com/Nilight-Offroad-Driving-Connector-Warranty/dp/B0B74ZQ3R5/ref=sr_1_15?crid=1YQP2C2EFX6C9&keywords=nilight+led+pods+9inch&qid=1669853996&sprefix=nilight+led+pods+9inch,aps,97&sr=8-15&ufe=app_do:amzn1.fos.18ed3cb5-28d5-4975-8bc7-93deae8f9840

Yep! That looks like the set.

The DRL is nice as well. Matches the Bronco DRL.

If you do install these with the upfitters, keep the relay in line and cut off the switch. White wire to your upfitter for power, black to ground and tape off the red. The yellow (I think it is) wire is the DRL, so hook it to a 12v accessory or however you choose to control it. I actually have a lot of lights with backlighting and like the ability to black them out, so all backlights are wired into upfitter 6 for stealth mode.

Im going from memory and can double check if ya need. Not everyone is familiar with wiring lights.

 

[Arokcrwlr]

Thanks, I don't have my Bronco yet, so no need to check. I'm pretty good at wiring, so when the time comes I should be ok. I may grab a set and add them to the mountain of parts I've accumulated...

 

[vzqhsg]

Hi guys!

So, I was running a 9 rated trail yesterday and had a very curious issue that I have not experienced prior with any vehicle and I'm not quite sure where to even go for help. This issue hasn't popped up on rutted roads or in washes etc. Only when I start crawling on rocks does the steering become unresponsive. Yesterday was the worst.

My steering would get so tight as to not be able to move the wheels at all without forward motion - even the tire in contact with the ground was on a somewhat slippery surface. As you can see from the photos below, the surface is very loose/sandy and even the rocks are crumbly. I would not expect very much steering resistance, even on 37s.


No grinding noises, no slipping feel.. nothing. Just an incredibly tight steering wheel. It almost feels like you would expect if you were trying to turn your wheel with some type of object in the way, stopping the wheel from turning. Once I'm back on flat ground, the steering feels just like the day I got it.

My only guess is I'm binding up the steering rack some how, but the only issue I was aware of with the Bronco steering is when the rack/pinion separate and teeth get damaged. Nothing like that has happened, and my steering wheel is still dead center (I would expect it to be crooked if the rack/pinion slipped.

Could it be the camber? I know camber plays a roll in steering. I do believe my camber may be a little positive right now..


My relevant rig setup is as follows:

2021 Badlands Sasquatch w/2.7
37x17x12.5 Yokohama Geolandar MT 003
Factory wheels with 1.5" spacers to clear UCA's
Icon Dynamics Adjustable Coil Overs
Icon Dynamics Billet UCA
.75" bump stop spacers installed front and back to limit rubbing with 37s
JKS Max Clearance Kit
JKS Tie Rod Braces


Lots more mods, but I think those are the only that matter for this conversation. Steering is still factory other than tie-rod braces being installed. Photo 3 shows the problem the best - you can see both front tires are on pretty slippery surfaces (the entire obstacle challenge is to get through without slipping and smashing your entire vehicle body into that car sized boulder)

So... any ideas? Anyone else have this issue?

This last shot is just a really nice photo from the same trip..

They fixed that in 2022, need a new Bronco!! :0)

 

[da_jokker]

With that said, I still have no good idea on what the long term fix is other than taking frequent breaks to let the steering cool. BroncBuster bushings/billet aluminum cap? Hoss 3.0 steering rack? Who knows..

Give @Snacktime 6 months and we'll find out!

 

[Snacktime]

Give @Snacktime 6 months and we'll find out!

My wife thinks I'm going to a Bronco car show this weekend.

 

[sfonteno]

Do you know how many people have lifted their rigs without spending $1700 on BroncBusters kit? Virtually everyone. I’ve come across exactly 1 person on the trails with upgraded steering out of countless modified Broncos I’ve met. Tie rod sleeves are the exception.

I’ve done thousands of miles on trails with this steering rack and it’s had the issue long before I went up to 37s.

It’s a shame the only aftermarket solution is $400 as it’s just a piece of plastic.

I agree and have some points to add to this great comment.
1. Agreed on drive first then adjust. Figure out what's going on before going nuts.
2. The steering rack only becomes an issue with the geometry changing with larger tires. I think part of the "freak out" is because Jeep has had a lock down forever and a bunch of people didn't understand IFS. (Toyotas are way less popular in the off-roading community.)
3. The driver is the best upgrade. I took training, I asked help from groups and this forum, I read and watch people using these vehicles. I think many of the issues are people getting into the OPs situation and just slamming the car or doing something dumb. (Props to op!)
5."Just a piece of plastic". It's a milled out piece of delrin. Someone had to put that in a CNC or lathe and produce it like a piece of metal. (It's not injection or printed.) I am very happy with this update as I have seen people doing LIGHT wheeling damaging this, frankly, way undersized/designed part in a critical component.
6. I think Fords biggest mistake is not the tie rods, that makes sense, put weak spots in easy to fix places. Their biggest mistake is how cheap the internals on the steering rack are. Bronc busters bring along a couple racks that are opened up, they let people look and play with them, it's very clear they skimped on this thing. Its fascinating how quickly they had the 3.0 system ready. (One year after major release means they knew they had this problem, there is no way it was done and produced in that time without them knowing right away.

 

[Graham1911]

I agree and have some points to add to this great comment.
1. Agreed on drive first then adjust. Figure out what's going on before going nuts.
2. The steering rack only becomes an issue with the geometry changing with larger tires. I think part of the "freak out" is because Jeep has had a lock down forever and a bunch of people didn't understand IFS. (Toyotas are way less popular in the off-roading community.)
3. The driver is the best upgrade. I took training, I asked help from groups and this forum, I read and watch people using these vehicles. I think many of the issues are people getting into the OPs situation and just slamming the car or doing something dumb. (Props to op!)
5."Just a piece of plastic". It's a milled out piece of delrin. Someone had to put that in a CNC or lathe and produce it like a piece of metal. (It's not injection or printed.) I am very happy with this update as I have seen people doing LIGHT wheeling damaging this, frankly, way undersized/designed part in a critical component.
6. I think Fords biggest mistake is not the tie rods, that makes sense, put weak spots in easy to fix places. Their biggest mistake is how cheap the internals on the steering rack are. Bronc busters bring along a couple racks that are opened up, they let people look and play with them, it's very clear they skimped on this thing. Its fascinating how quickly they had the 3.0 system ready. (One year after major release means they knew they had this problem, there is no way it was done and produced in that time without them knowing right away.

Please clarify, "I am very happy with this update as I have seen people doing LIGHT wheeling damaging this." Do you mean Ford OEM bushing or BB upgraded bushing? Thanks.

 

[sfonteno]

Please clarify, "I am very happy with this update as I have seen people doing LIGHT wheeling damaging this." Do you mean Ford OEM bushing or BB upgraded bushing? Thanks.

OEM.

 

[Theherofails]

I agree and have some points to add to this great comment.
1. Agreed on drive first then adjust. Figure out what's going on before going nuts.
2. The steering rack only becomes an issue with the geometry changing with larger tires. I think part of the "freak out" is because Jeep has had a lock down forever and a bunch of people didn't understand IFS. (Toyotas are way less popular in the off-roading community.)
3. The driver is the best upgrade. I took training, I asked help from groups and this forum, I read and watch people using these vehicles. I think many of the issues are people getting into the OPs situation and just slamming the car or doing something dumb. (Props to op!)
5."Just a piece of plastic". It's a milled out piece of delrin. Someone had to put that in a CNC or lathe and produce it like a piece of metal. (It's not injection or printed.) I am very happy with this update as I have seen people doing LIGHT wheeling damaging this, frankly, way undersized/designed part in a critical component.
6. I think Fords biggest mistake is not the tie rods, that makes sense, put weak spots in easy to fix places. Their biggest mistake is how cheap the internals on the steering rack are. Bronc busters bring along a couple racks that are opened up, they let people look and play with them, it's very clear they skimped on this thing. Its fascinating how quickly they had the 3.0 system ready. (One year after major release means they knew they had this problem, there is no way it was done and produced in that time without them knowing right away.

I want to put to bed forever the idea that charging $400 for a plastic part is anything other than highway robbery. This is going to upset a lot of people, but reality is what it is.

I'm not gonna pinch his design, but I just used some quick measurements to make an example bushing that would function identically to the BroncBuster bushing. I'm keeping it slightly vague in order not to get in trouble with the guy. It needs a snap ring and an o ring channel, but this is just a rough sketch for this next part..

I can order an actual bushing made out of literal titanium as a one off for over $100 cheaper than the BroncBuster Delrin part, which is less than $1.50 a pop if I order more than 100 at a time.

What you are paying for are his vacations, engineering time (this is a copied Ford part that is a bit thicker than OEM, nothing more), and marketing.

I'm not knocking the guy, but I wish people would stop trying to justify the cost. This is a free market, and he can charge every single penny he feels he deserves.. That doesn't mean it's reasonable or that I'm paying the markup.

Keep in mind that I'm being penalized with those prices for only quoting one part. The Titanium parts drop down to well below $200/each with just an order of 5..


Titanium isn't an ideal material for this, but is one of the most expensive to machine.

The billet passenger side housing he sells is a bit more reasonably priced, but I can promise you he isn't going hungry by selling them at $1200/each.

 

[sfonteno]

I want to put to bed forever the idea that charging $400 for a plastic part is anything other than highway robbery. This is going to upset a lot of people, but reality is what it is.

I'm not gonna pinch his design, but I just used some quick measurements to make an example bushing that would function identically to the BroncBuster bushing. I'm keeping it slightly vague in order not to get in trouble with the guy. It needs a snap ring and an o ring channel, but this is just a rough sketch for this next part..

I can order an actual bushing made out of literal titanium as a one off for over $100 cheaper than the BroncBuster Delrin part, which is less than $1.50 a pop if I order more than 100 at a time.

What you are paying for are his vacations, engineering time (this is a copied Ford part that is a bit thicker than OEM, nothing more), and marketing.

I'm not knocking the guy, but I wish people would stop trying to justify the cost. This is a free market, and he can charge every single penny he feels he deserves.. That doesn't mean it's reasonable or that I'm paying the markup.

Keep in mind that I'm being penalized with those prices for only quoting one part. The Titanium parts drop down to well below $200/each with just an order of 5..


Titanium isn't an ideal material for this, but is one of the most expensive to machine.

The billet passenger side housing he sells is a bit more reasonably priced, but I can promise you he isn't going hungry by selling them at $1200/each.

Correct, and nre (Non recurring engineering) matters. I do not have the time or willingness to do this myself and test it, let alone market it. $400 is cheaper than tie rods and imo this serves a much better purpose than beefier tie rods.
Knowing how to do what you indicated does not mean it's not worth what he is charging, most people have neither the brain power or time.

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