Another Tie Rod (Dorman) Enters the Chat

[Dorf2point0]

Okay, that’s it.. Let’s build a test fixture and test all these fancy tie rods.. The proof is in the pudding ( load that tie rods fail) .. Cyclic load is a little more changing, but it could put to rest what really works vs. it’s good enough for highway safety.. Just saying ..

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[Snacktime]

Not sure I agree that location is the weakest point... I will agree that it has the smallest diameter. But that does not make it the weakest point.... and that is really a misnomer.... I guess what I am saying is that it will have less stress upon it because the distance to support is shorter. (the bending force is multiplied by the distance) But even more importantly it appears to be an entirely different material. I do not know what the strength of that material is compaired to the other materials used.

Anecdotally is this where most tie rods fail? I thought it was typically somewhere in the threads. Usually in a thread the furthest away from the support.... right where the two pieces come together (but on the thread side). Maybe I am wrong.

I applaud you for trying these out! I am going to guess they actually are a step up in strength. But I do not know. To me the design suggests that they will be but a lot of that strength will depend on the materials and I have no clue as to what they are using.

Current failure point for me is the actual socket balls. The first thing I am going to look at it the socket ball and how much material is their. Thinking I should run an Icon on one side and a Dorman on the other. See which one dies first.

There has been a couple of bent at the socket balls images floating around facebook. Not sure on how or what setup did the damage. I just went looking for the pictures and came up empty handed, so slightly subjective till I find some good evidence.

I am at the point that I don't think the tie rod shaft material is of a concern. The primary issue is the internal components inside the socket ball. Dorman is not known to be higher quality than Moog and I don't think they will be higher quality than factory. It will come down to how well the internals are designed. The red flag is the poor design of the visible attributes.

Lets see I got 5k miles before a HOSS 3.0 inner failure and 3K Miles before an Icon inner failure. We will see how Dorman does!

 

[Dorf2point0]

Current failure point for me is the actual socket balls. The first thing I am going to look at it the socket ball and how much material is their. Thinking I should run an Icon on one side and a Dorman on the other. See which one dies first.

There has been a couple of bent at the socket balls images floating around facebook. Not sure on how or what setup did the damage. I just went looking for the pictures and came up empty handed, so slightly subjective till I find some good evidence.

I am at the point that I don't think the tie rod shaft material is of a concern. The primary issue is the internal components inside the socket ball. Dorman is not known to be higher quality than Moog and I don't think they will be higher quality than factory. It will come down to how well the internals are designed. The red flag is the poor design of the visible attributes.

Lets see I got 5k miles before a HOSS 3.0 inner failure and 3K Miles before an Icon inner failure. We will see how Dorman does!

Ouch…

 

[5GENIDN]

Current failure point for me is the actual socket balls. The first thing I am going to look at it the socket ball and how much material is their. Thinking I should run an Icon on one side and a Dorman on the other. See which one dies first.

There has been a couple of bent at the socket balls images floating around facebook. Not sure on how or what setup did the damage. I just went looking for the pictures and came up empty handed, so slightly subjective till I find some good evidence.

I am at the point that I don't think the tie rod shaft material is of a concern. The primary issue is the internal components inside the socket ball. Dorman is not known to be higher quality than Moog and I don't think they will be higher quality than factory. It will come down to how well the internals are designed. The red flag is the poor design of the visible attributes.

Lets see I got 5k miles before a HOSS 3.0 inner failure and 3K Miles before an Icon inner failure. We will see how Dorman does!

No need for pics... I trust you . You say that is where it is happening, that is where it is happening. I did not know that. Fascinating. I am not readily willing to dismiss there design as weaker because I just do not have the design criteria, the specifics, or the rational behind the design choices.... But as you stated history!!! materials and processes mater! You may very well be correct on this.

Like I said I did not realize that the joints were common failure points. that is pretty significant information.

 

[Alanp970]

Okay, that’s it.. Let’s build a test fixture and test all these fancy tie rods.. The proof is in the pudding ( load that tie rods fail) .. Cyclic load is a little more changing, but it could put to rest what really works vs. it’s good enough for highway safety.. Just saying ..
[/QUOTE]

Where’s the Torque Test Channel” when we need them. They’d get to the bottom of this!

 

[Snacktime]

Okay, that’s it.. Let’s build a test fixture and test all these fancy tie rods.. The proof is in the pudding ( load that tie rods fail) .. Cyclic load is a little more changing, but it could put to rest what really works vs. it’s good enough for highway safety.. Just saying ..

Where’s the Torque Test Channel” when we need them. They’d get to the bottom of this!
[/QUOTE]

Right now I would focus on cycle testing, I am past getting the strongest tie rods and want something long term. I think you will find that there are two strengths, when the internal socket ball fails and complete failure. Right now I think the internal socket ball fails from repeated wheeling with 37s and occasional pot hole. That is why I'm thinking of going to a head to head set up.

 

[BAUS67]

Hey @Snacktime have you seen Carli's setup??????

17-23 FORD BRONCO STEERING TIE-ROD SYSTEM – Carli Suspension, Inc.

If you are having/seeing issues with the inner joint it looks like they might have found that issue as well and saw it prudent to make it rebuildable.

Now, for those who don't know Carli, they like that rebuildable stuff, on certain models. I have sold many ball joints for Rams over the years. Yes, they sell rebuildable ball joints. Not cheap, but never buy another one.

Now their Bronco setup does use a heim style outer, but I will say at least they were smart enough to incorporate a bracket to make it double shear and will keep you from bending the long stud commonly used for a heim style.

Side note: @Carli-Dan in case you did not know, you might want to have your web site guys fix your coverage years.

 

[Snacktime]

@BAUS67 I have looked at the Carli stuff, I have really been eyeing their sway bar setup. It's just not proven, the design has to many parts and it's expensive. I am also very happy with stock like driving experience, heims get sloppy quick and those carli outers look like heims mixed with a Johny joint.

I won't spend money on a heim steering, heim suspension links or any metal on metal exposed joints. The maintenance, clanking and slop are not worth the strength.

 

[87-Z28]

I'll back up @5GENIDN on this one. It's all about the pivot points. It can look like a curly straw between those two points. I see a lot of people struggle with this concept with draglinks and trackbars on solid axles.

this. The overall geometry and boundary conditions from the end pivot points drives the loading and response. As long as the link is rigid (doesn’t fail) then it’s shape is completely irrelevant.

of course the strongest link will be a straight bar. Not sure there is any reason to put a bend in the link unless there is an interference issue, which is not the case. Seems to me the bend is only there for marketing and product differentiation. Sure the thickness maybe such that the overall strength is same or better than oem straight link.
But I would be concerned about design ideology if they are adding the bend just to sell more of these. Makes me question the product like @Snacktime says.

 

[87-Z28]

Hey @Snacktime have you seen Carli's setup??????

17-23 FORD BRONCO STEERING TIE-ROD SYSTEM – Carli Suspension, Inc.

If you are having/seeing issues with the inner joint it looks like they might have found that issue as well and saw it prudent to make it rebuildable.

Now, for those who don't know Carli, they like that rebuildable stuff, on certain models. I have sold many ball joints for Rams over the years. Yes, they sell rebuildable ball joints. Not cheap, but never buy another one.

Now their Bronco setup does use a heim style outer, but I will say at least they were smart enough to incorporate a bracket to make it double shear and will keep you from bending the long stud commonly used for a heim style.

Side note: @Carli-Dan in case you did not know, you might want to have your web site guys fix your coverage years.

that is the business. Looks crazy stout. Not sure that belongs on my ride that is 95% on the street.

 

[Dantastic]

@BAUS67 I have looked at the Carli stuff, I have really been eyeing their sway bar setup. It's just not proven, the design has to many parts and it's expensive. I am also very happy with stock like driving experience, heims get sloppy quick and those carli outers look like heims mixed with a Johny joint.

I won't spend money on a heim steering, heim suspension links or any metal on metal exposed joints. The maintenance, clanking and slop are not worth the strength.

Can I just say, I appreciate your input @Snacktime. I’ve read a lot of your stuff on steering rack and tie rods and I’m confident you’ll eventually come to the best solution/sweet spot and will happily share it when you do.

 

[Carli-Dan]

@BAUS67 I have looked at the Carli stuff, I have really been eyeing their sway bar setup. It's just not proven, the design has to many parts and it's expensive. I am also very happy with stock like driving experience, heims get sloppy quick and those carli outers look like heims mixed with a Johny joint.

I won't spend money on a heim steering, heim suspension links or any metal on metal exposed joints. The maintenance, clanking and slop are not worth the strength.

It's proven now! I just got back from 1,000 miles over 4-days through every type of terrain Baja has to offer. I drove this thing to it's limit... Mud/ruts, sand, Forrest/Mountains, desert, etc.

After the trip, the only casualty was the driver's side factory CV axle. I'll be posting more on our social media about the trip, but the steering is perfect.

The design is a damped uniball. We use FK's teflon-lined uniballs on many of our spherical joint application as they've always been amazing. Adding our high-durometer urethane drastically extends the life of the uniballs as it pertains to wear but, time will tell if corrosion will be a factor. We've not had any issues yet!

 

[Snacktime]

It's proven now! I just got back from 1,000 miles over 4-days through every type of terrain Baja has to offer. I drove this thing to it's limit... Mud/ruts, sand, Forrest/Mountains, desert, etc.

After the trip, the only casualty was the driver's side factory CV axle. I'll be posting more on our social media about the trip, but the steering is perfect.

The design is a damped uniball. We use FK's teflon-lined uniballs on many of our spherical joint application as they've always been amazing. Adding our high-durometer urethane drastically extends the life of the uniballs as it pertains to wear but, time will tell if corrosion will be a factor. We've not had any issues yet!

Manufacture claims don't make things proven, your just one vehicle and very limited total mileage. Your still in the unproven products till we get a few people running your setup and with some mileage across multiple vehicles.

 

[Carli-Dan]

Manufacture claims don't make things proven, your just one vehicle and very limited total mileage. Your still in the unproven products till we get a few people running your setup and with some mileage across multiple vehicles.

It's on several vehicles and we've shipped a good amount to end users. As we've now completed a trip through conditions to which very few will subject their Broncos, i thought the feedback to be relevant. I understand and appreciate your perspective - as an enthusiast, i always look to end user feedback and take manufacturer claims with a grain of salt.

 

[Snacktime]

It's on several vehicles and we've shipped a good amount to end users. As we've now completed a trip through conditions to which very few will subject their Broncos, i thought the feedback to be relevant. I understand and appreciate your perspective - as an enthusiast, i always look to end user feedback and take manufacturer claims with a grain of salt.

Had no clue these are out in the wild, I will keep an eye out. Your claims are only valid with videos, lol.

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