Electronics; how much is too much?

[Ole Skool Bronc]

Ole Skool Bronc, given your expertise what electronics do you deem necessary to meet the necessary EPA regulations and modern crash safety requirements. I am curious what you will say. Additionally I wonder what base price you would like to see this platform offered at. Lastly I will assume the utmost mechanical robustness is already included (something the TJ and previous Jeeps really lack) as well as competitive powertrain specs. I will inform the powertrain research team I was a part of last year post haste! in all seriousness though I am wondering what you really expected? As others have pointed out/mocked. Even if Ford could prove there was a market for a modern built retro rig, it legally couldn't sell it!

I appreciate your enthusiasm for the Bronco, some of us on here may disagree with you on the utility of modern electronics but I think there may be a more important disconnect. Most of us here understand that Ford HAS to do certain things to make a saleable vehicle and we accept that, and discuss the opportunities and challenges that brings.

Hey, thanks for a legit post.

* EPA regulations and modern crash safety requirements. = What is, is. They'll have to comply. But there are "work arounds" I'll cover below.

* what base price you would like to see this platform offered at. = realistically? I suspect about $50,000+, they will probably try to keep a base model in the mid 40's.

* I am wondering what you really expected? = about what everyone else is expecting; lots of electronics, but I'm not happy about it. I suspect, (but hope I'm wrong) they'll build something along the lines of the Raptor. The Raptor is a great off road machine for the desert and going fast. The Oly and Stroppe Baja Broncos excluded, that's not what made Broncos great.

* As others have pointed out/mocked = isn't that the truth!

* some of us on here may disagree with you on the utility of modern electronics = If anyone was really listening; they wouldn't be disagreeing. Either I'm not making myself clear or they are misunderstanding or ignorant flamers.

Sponsored

 

[Ole Skool Bronc]

Gentlemen,
It is not because I don't know electronics that I don't want a lot of electronics on a new Bronco. It's because the electronics on vehicles, while fairly decent are not made for the hostile environments an off road vehicles operates in. Do you think Ford is going to manufacture special dust and water proof sensors and connections, special shock and vibration resistant ECM's PCM's etc... just for the Bronco or just use the same electronics they use on their street cars? (actually Idk, no one knows at this point)

Therefore, I'd like the electronics kept to a minimum.

Furthermore; "for me" too many electronics take away from the driving experience. I like to be able to "feel" my vehicle. Electronics often act as a mediator between you and your machine.

Since a number of you think I'm just here to troll; let me offer a solution actually using available technology.

In Jeeps, disabling the nanny devices is a pain and some only can be disabled in 4wd low range. This is not acceptable "to me". So what is the solution? Depends what is legal. I don't know the exact legal requirements for a vehicle built for street use and if they can be legally disabled while off road. If they can I don't want to holding down switches for seconds waiting to disable, only to have them default back to manufacturer specs after the vehicle is turned off - especially with an auto start/stop feature.

"IF" all legal requirements for a street vehicle can be legally disabled while off road; then give us an easy, simple, fast way to do it. If Ford is liable for making it possible for people to disable on the street, then why not install image recognition software to determine if the vehicle is on the pavement or off road? Such software can be combined with GPS to determine if it is legal to disable all nannies. Design the off road mode to enable a row of clearly labeled lit toggle or rocker switches for each individual nanny for the driver to turn off or on with just a flick of the wrist.

Once this system is in place it becomes very very easy to rewire; artificially supplying recognition and GPS inputs. Having done so; this shifts the liability to the owner.

 

[DaBoss]

Really? No need to be rude. But you can help your ignorance (not sure if this forum accepts links). Look; do me a favor; Just google anything with the words; "hacker controls jeep" then get back to me and we'll see if you still think I have issues - (well issues related to vehicle wireless interface)

Did windows or locking doors on vehicles ever stop thieves from gaining access to peoples vehicles when you didn't want them to?

There is always going to be someone out there who is going to try and exploit something beyond their intended use for their own personal gain/amusement. Let that be the electronics in vehicles for whatever nefarious things they are doing that you mentioned, hacking a computer to gain access to your information, etc.

Just like with anything, when a problem arises, someone needs to find a solution.

If anything, you should be thanking the "hackers" because they're allowing the manufacturers to recognize their lapses in security and resolve them.

 

[Ole Skool Bronc]

Did windows or locking doors on vehicles ever stop thieves from gaining access to peoples vehicles when you didn't want them to?

There is always going to be someone out there who is going to try and exploit something beyond their intended use for their own personal gain/amusement. Let that be the electronics in vehicles for whatever nefarious things they are doing that you mentioned, hacking a computer to gain access to your information, etc.

Just like with anything, when a problem arises, someone needs to find a solution.

If anything, you should be thanking the "hackers" because they're allowing the manufacturers to recognize their lapses in security and resolve them.

Did you know one of the greatest deterrents to auto theft nowadays is a manual transmission, lol!

 

[Jalisurr]

Design the off road mode to enable a row of clearly labeled lit toggle or rocker switches for each individual nanny for the driver to turn off or on with just a flick of the wrist.

While I'm somewhat doubtful it will happen, this would be awesome.

 

[BroncoMike]

Yeah, hacking these new-fangled cars is too easy. I'ma just hack into all mine and configure all that auto-crap to default to off. Screw that dangerous ABS, and I'll manually shift my 10-speed automatic all the time. Plus if I want them airbags, I'll fire them my damned own self!

Can it be done? Sure, I would venture that very few things are unhackable. Does anyone have the motivation to learn the systems that thoroughly and single you out? Maybe, if you're someone much more important than I ever was. More likely it would be a ransomware threat to blackmail or extort from the manufacturer.

Is there a stupidly simple fix to prevent it? Yeah.

 

[Ole Skool Bronc]

Yeah, hacking these new-fangled cars is too easy. I'ma just hack into all mine and configure all that auto-crap to default to off. Screw that dangerous ABS, and I'll manually shift my 10-speed automatic all the time. Plus if I want them airbags, I'll fire them my damned own self!

Can it be done? Sure, I would venture that very few things are unhackable. Does anyone have the motivation to learn the systems that thoroughly and single you out? Maybe, if you're someone much more important than I ever was. More likely it would be a ransomware threat to blackmail or extort from the manufacturer.

Is there a stupidly simple fix to prevent it? Yeah.

Mike, it doesn't really work like that. There are firewalls for proprietary software. A hacker can take control of your vehicle and operate the same things you ask your computer to do from the drivers seat or simulate mechanical failures.
However.......
Call me cynical or a conspiracy theorist, but with the symbiotic relationship between our government and big corporations; there is no way that there is not back door programming already in our new vehicle computers sitting idle waiting for the right laws to be enacted.

It's not a matter of singling you out. The government has your vin number attached to your name, license plate number and address. If there is backdoor programming like I think, then it's as easy as texting someone. Didn't pay your registration on time? They brick your car until you pay. Your car reports it's being a gross polluter; you're fined, put in limp mode or bricked.

I'm not saying this is going to happen next year, but it's coming; it's just a matter of time.

 

[Carolina Jim]

I'm not saying this is going to happen next year, but it's coming; it's just a matter of time.

You don't have to think that black helicopters are watching your house to believe this is likely...its already being implemented in China. Just GOOGLE China social credit system. Ironically, their system began with mobility restrictions...as 20+ million plane tickets have already been denied. WIRED: The primary mechanism of the Social Credit System are the nationwide blacklists and red lists. Each regulatory agency was asked to come up with a rap sheet of its worst offenders, businesses and individuals who violated preexisting industry regulations. The red lists are the exact opposite—they’re rosters of companies and people that have been particularly compliant.

Expensive, computerized vehicles are not the norm globally; seems I read that before Tata acquired Land Rover & Jaguar their most expensive auto in India was ~$3K. Who knows what some government wacko will try to do down the road in the USA.

 

[TeocaliMG]

Call me cynical or a conspiracy theorist, but with the symbiotic relationship between our government and big corporations; there is no way that there is not back door programming already in our new vehicle computers sitting idle waiting for the right laws to be enacted.

As an current engineer at Ford I can assure you that you give our programmers too much "credit". I think its also worth noting how limited the functions are for any would be hacker, we're all working on self driving cars right now and we all (all OEMs) struggle to get things working smoothly with a whole lot of support. Can it be done? yes. Can some random hacker drive your car remotely as he pleases? No. He can potentially cause problems though, thats fair. But that brings us back to the start, do you expect Ford to build a hydraulic rack for steering and be utterly uncompetitive with driver aids, features, and capability in the general market? Not going to happen, even though all the "hard core" guys would likely prefer it. (In name only)

A lot of this tech is required for the regs, as we both stated, maybe some bypass for off road could be done? The EPA would probably throw a hissy fit though, not to mention the electronics still have to survive which is only marginally easier if they are just being bypassed. (Not that its really that hard now a days) Earlier I noted that we disagree on the utility of modern electronics, thats the other half of the equation. All the tech you see that you don't like is either to make the car legal, or to make it more competitive whether its net cost to operate, or value added via features. I can assure you, at least for now, we are not working with the Gov to build "sleeper agents" (new way to think of a "sleeper" I guess). We are just trying to get back to 10% EBIT margin okay! Thats hard enough!

 

[Ole Skool Bronc]

All I asked was; "What does a heated seat module cost including troubleshooting and labor labor?"

As a dealer; He knows, instead of answering he gets butt hurt and puts me on ignore. Gee, I wonder why? LMAO!

Ladies and Gentlemen; this ^^^ is what I'm talking about. I didn't need Krispy to answer; I already know; (for a jk/jl) it's more than the original heated leather seat option @ iirc; $1200. That's just it - after the warranty period (which btw is no cake walk taking your vehicle back and forth to the dealer) you are at the mercy of unpredictable electronics extremely costly to repair if you can't do it yourself.

Take special Note; Krispy didn't address my assertion that street car electronics are going to be used in off road vehicle applications.

Nothing against Krispy other than he's a Car Salesman, other than that he is probably a nice guy. It's not his fault he has to make a living selling a product he can't be honest about.

 

[bbostic5]

All I asked was; "What does a heated seat module cost including troubleshooting and labor labor?"

As a dealer; He knows, instead of answering he gets butt hurt and puts me on ignore. Gee, I wonder why? LMAO!

Ladies and Gentlemen; this ^^^ is what I'm talking about. I didn't need Krispy to answer; I already know; (for a jk/jl) and it's more than the original heated leather seat option @ irrc; $1200. That's just it - after the warranty period (which btw is no cake walk taking your vehicle back and forth to the dealer) you are at the mercy of unpredictable electronics extremely costly to repair if you can't do it yourself.

Take special Note; Krispy didn't address my assertion that street car electronics are going to be used in off road vehicle applications.

Nothing against Krispy other than he's a Car Salesman, other than that he is probably a nice guy. It's not his fault he has to make a living selling a product he can't be honest about.

He's putting you on ignore because you're an ass. You can't see that because you're also a narcissist.

 

[Ole Skool Bronc]

He's putting you on ignore because you're an ass. You can't see that because you're also a narcissist.

Yes, I know; being realistic and ferreting out the truth is considered being an ass to today's sheeple.

Probably even more when you do it with a fan boy club fantasizing about a vehicle no one had seen. It reminds me of trying to discuss reality with someone in a religious Cult.

 

[TeocaliMG]

Yes, I know; being realistic and ferreting out the truth is considered being an ass to today's sheeple.

Probably even more when you do it with a fan boy club fantasizing about a vehicle no one had seen. It reminds me of trying to discuss reality with someone in a religious Cult.

Define seen... If you include screens/VisMockup, I've seen it and I think most of us on here can join hands and sing kumbaya in less than a year

 

[bbostic5]

Yes, I know; being realistic and ferreting out the truth is considered being an ass to today's sheeple.

Probably even more when you do it with a fan boy club fantasizing about a vehicle no one had seen. It reminds me of trying to discuss reality with someone in a religious Cult.

Which is ironic considering you've done nothing but hate a car you've never seen since you joined this forum.

Sponsored