Pro's/Con's of going with front and rear LSD!!

[DonM]

On to another tangent. I don't really think locker's will be particularly useful for the type of driving I would be doing 99% of the time (road and crappy roads and slushy roads). Honestly, a Base 4 Door with a 2.7 and an all-wheel drive setup like a WRX would be cool with me as long as it could handle up to 33" tires. I'd like a big open air rally monster over a mudder or rock-crawler. Plus, I think this might also be a useful set-up as a small camper tow machine.

So I started hoping that at least a rear LSD would be available. Then I starting hoping that maybe an LSD in the M190 would be an okay thing and that might even turn into an option. Now if I can upgrade front a la cart to a M210 for less than $1k-ish, I'd do that. Then I was like, lets add the advanced transfer case for the 4A ability. Of course I'd also want to upgrade to 4.27 gearing (the 2.7 should make enough power if not completely ideal).

So what do y'all think of a set-up like that and particularly if a front/rear LSD setup would be okay for the street/towing?

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[kodiakisland]

I really doubt you need a front LSD. A rear LSD over an open diff for most applications is a great idea. Some like clutch pack LSDs, but I prefer torsen LSD as they don't stop working like the clutch pack ones do over time. The Bronco will have some type of traction control where it applies brake to a spinning wheel, which is much better than nothing, but I's still rather have an LSD and power to both wheels than braking.

 

[Hopeless Diamond]

being able to control when you are locked up can be beneficial in very slippery off camber situations. Slick muddy and/or snowy road and rear locked up can (and does) tend to slip your ass over to the medi-vac side of many off-camber sections of roads. In most trail situations you don't need the axles locked, but when you do, you do. Not having them locked when not needed can be safer.

 

[Incognito]

Pros of F/R LSD: superior performance on muddy trails, dirt, gravel and snow over either open, or locked diffs.

Factory open diffs with the Base model standard computer controlled brake locking is best on ice.
( hurray for insurance companies!)

Locked diffs win the day on hard terrain and going over boulders.

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Negatives of LSD right now in 2020:
No one makes a front or rear LSD for the Jeep JL Wrangler two years after it was introduced.
Let alone planning a LSD for the Bronco m190 or m220.

ARB is just bringing in front and rear Lockers for the M190 and M220 shared on the Ranger/Bronco.

You're in for a long wait for LSDs.

 

[Ocnorb]

No one makes a front or rear LSD for the Jeep JL Wrangler two years after it was introduced.
Let alone planning a LSD for the Bronco m190 or m220.

ARB is just bringing in front and rear Lockers for the M190 and M220 shared on the Ranger/Bronco.

You're in for a long wait for LSDs.

Not sure that's true. Seems the JL has Dana 35 or 44 rear axle, and there's the Detroit TrueTrac LSD for both of those. The Bronco is going to have a D44 rear, so there's already tons of aftermarket options for that axle. I had a Truetrac in my Ford 8.8 in my Jeep and it was great, but make no mistake, it was not a true locker.

 

[Incognito]

Not sure that's true. Seems the JL has Dana 35 or 44 rear axle, and there's the Detroit TrueTrac LSD for both of those. The Bronco is going to have a D44 rear, so there's already tons of aftermarket options for that axle. I had a Truetrac in my Ford 8.8 in my Jeep and it was great, but make no mistake, it was not a true locker.

Oops!
Should have been more clear.
No long lived gear driven LSD.
Wearable clutch pack LSD in the rear is a factory option for the JL.

For the record, I'd never reccomend a clutch pack LSD for 4x4.
They wear out way too fast for the cost vs life.

 

[DonM]

So I take it that the Torsen LSD is gear driven?

 

[Used2jeep]

Similar thought about those here. Curious if the electronics would have the brakes act as a limited slip.

 

[kodiakisland]

So I take it that the Torsen LSD is gear driven?

Yes, torsen is a type and not a brand. The Detroit Truetrac is a torsen LSD. I love my Truetracs for general purpose use in trucks and muscle cars. They work great on the road and are decent for moderate off road use. They are not as good as a true locker for some applications, but for most people they do everything you need them to.

 

[DonM]

Yes, torsen is a type and not a brand. The Detroit Truetrac is a torsen LSD. I love my Truetracs for general purpose use in trucks and muscle cars. They work great on the road and are decent for moderate off road use. They are not as good as a true locker for some applications, but for most people they do everything you need them to.

Copy and thanks!

 

[BearWithMe]

I would love to have a Torsen LSD option for the rear diff, even if it meant I couldn't have a rear locker.

The number of times I have used the rear locker offroad? Maybe twice in dozens of offroad trips, and both times it really didn't make a difference.

 

[Rocketeer Rick]

Yes, torsen is a type and not a brand. The Detroit Truetrac is a torsen LSD. I love my Truetracs for general purpose use in trucks and muscle cars. They work great on the road and are decent for moderate off road use. They are not as good as a true locker for some applications, but for most people they do everything you need them to.

Hi, I've been a long-time lurker that finally registered so that I can address this post.
Torsen actually is a brand. I know this because I work for Torsen North America. But the name has become so commonly used that people interchange it with a product type (like with Xerox or Kleenex). In fact, Torsen is a regular supplier to Ford for various models (but unfortunately not Bronco) and has been for quite a long time.

So with that said, TrueTrac is not a Torsen, though it is a Torsen competitor. Similar in a lot of regards, different in a lot of nuances. Both are helical gear LSDs, sometimes called torque-sensing, differentials.

Either way, having owned vehicles with front and rear Torsens, I can tell you that they go a long way to be beneficial, especially in the front. No, they don't lock, so there are limitations. But as noted earlier in the thread, there are a lot of driving situations where full-time torque biasing is overall better than occasional locking. It depends on what you do.

In any case, I have the sneaking suspicion that the aftermarket with have all sorts of LSD products for the trucks that don't have lockers OEM. I bet Ford will push for it. But, if the axles are like the ones in the Ranger, then they will have welded-on ring gears (an unfortunate trend in the industry). That means installing an LSD will require changing the ring and pinion at the same time.

 

[DonM]

Hi, I've been a long-time lurker that finally registered so that I can address this post.
Torsen actually is a brand. I know this because I work for Torsen North America. But the name has become so commonly used that people interchange it with a product type (like with Xerox or Kleenex). In fact, Torsen is a regular supplier to Ford for various models (but unfortunately not Bronco) and has been for quite a long time.

So with that said, TrueTrac is not a Torsen, though it is a Torsen competitor. Similar in a lot of regards, different in a lot of nuances. Both are helical gear LSDs, sometimes called torque-sensing, differentials.

Either way, having owned vehicles with front and rear Torsens, I can tell you that they go a long way to be beneficial, especially in the front. No, they don't lock, so there are limitations. But as noted earlier in the thread, there are a lot of driving situations where full-time torque biasing is overall better than occasional locking. It depends on what you do.

In any case, I have the sneaking suspicion that the aftermarket with have all sorts of LSD products for the trucks that don't have lockers OEM. I bet Ford will push for it. But, if the axles are like the ones in the Ranger, then they will have welded-on ring gears (an unfortunate trend in the industry). That means installing an LSD will require changing the ring and pinion at the same time.

So front and rear HGLSD with the 4A would be similar to a Subaru AWD setup? I have this crazy idea that I want the Bronco to be more rally raid then anything else. Speed with the ability to do the easy off-roading that I anticipate. I also understand that speed in a Bronco is relative.

 

[kodiakisland]

Hi, I've been a long-time lurker that finally registered so that I can address this post.
Torsen actually is a brand. I know this because I work for Torsen North America. But the name has become so commonly used that people interchange it with a product type (like with Xerox or Kleenex). In fact, Torsen is a regular supplier to Ford for various models (but unfortunately not Bronco) and has been for quite a long time.

So with that said, TrueTrac is not a Torsen, though it is a Torsen competitor. Similar in a lot of regards, different in a lot of nuances. Both are helical gear LSDs, sometimes called torque-sensing, differentials.

Either way, having owned vehicles with front and rear Torsens, I can tell you that they go a long way to be beneficial, especially in the front. No, they don't lock, so there are limitations. But as noted earlier in the thread, there are a lot of driving situations where full-time torque biasing is overall better than occasional locking. It depends on what you do.

In any case, I have the sneaking suspicion that the aftermarket with have all sorts of LSD products for the trucks that don't have lockers OEM. I bet Ford will push for it. But, if the axles are like the ones in the Ranger, then they will have welded-on ring gears (an unfortunate trend in the industry). That means installing an LSD will require changing the ring and pinion at the same time.

Good info. Thanks for registering.
So, I love the performance and the great road characteristics of the Truetrac. What are the benefits of the Torsen brand LSD over the Truetrac that might make me choose it. I know there are other gear driven LSDs, but I've never used anything besides the Truetrac in both 4WD and older muscle cars.

 

[Rocketeer Rick]

So front and rear HGLSD with the 4A would be similar to a Subaru AWD setup? I have this crazy idea that I want the Bronco to be more rally raid then anything else. Speed with the ability to do the easy off-roading that I anticipate. I also understand that speed in a Bronco is relative.

Yes, after a fashion. The WRX STi uses a Torsen in the rear axle and a different manufacturer helical diff in the front. In that vehicle, there is also a controllable center differential that divides power front to rear full-time. A 4A won't have quite the same behavior, but it really depends on calibration of the system. But in general, that set up would be pretty rally car like.

That's exactly what I'd be looking for. Over the last 20 years, I've been very active in the local winter rally scene, enough that it drives what I look for in a vehicle set up. I had a V8 Mountaineer that had F/R Torsens, a Ranger FX4 Level2 with the same set up, a Hemi Grand Cherokee with 3 eLSDs, and now I'm working on setting up a F150 for the same duty. In that case, F/R Torsen uits will coincide with installing 4.10s in the axle.

I say all that, but have a reservation on a MT Badlands. I'm hoping that there will be other (aftermarket) diff options by the time I actually take delivery.

Good info. Thanks for registering.
So, I love the performance and the great road characteristics of the Truetrac. What are the benefits of the Torsen brand LSD over the Truetrac that might make me choose it. I know there are other gear driven LSDs, but I've never used anything besides the Truetrac in both 4WD and older muscle cars.

I should preface that it isn't really my intent to be here in an official capacity. So, this is all my opinion and not an official company position. And my opinion is likely to be "biased" (that's differential humor there). I try to be fair-minded, but I've worked for this company a long time.

The TrueTrac units I've seen are OK, but lack refinement (for lack of a better term). In terms of gear design and manufacture. Backlash in the unit is relatively high in my experience. Also, I've heard anecdotes that production quality isn't as good as used to be. Keep in mind, much of the feedback I get is from end customers that call up looking for something else, so maybe they've had a poorer experience than is typical. But the bottom line here is that the product may generally be more "aftermarket" grade than OEM level, if that makes any sense. OTOH, 95% of what Torsen manufactures is for OEM production. I'm not saying that Eaton (owner of TrueTrac) isn't a quality company, because they are, and most of their overall business is in OEM-grade components. But TrueTrac is an aftermarket product line. Again, this is all my opinion, and you have no way of knowing that I'm not just some kid on the internet, so take it for what its worth.

There are also a bunch of nuance differences in the gearing design, layout, materials, and construction of the two brands of product. I don't intend to dive too deep into that and hijack the thread. Generally, the Torsen can be designed to be more aggressive if desired due having a more flexible / tuneable design. We've won business that TrueTrac lost due to that in the past. Torsen gearing is generally more survivable in conditions where wheel spin occurs due to the load distribution across the gears. But that's mostly a moot point in the age of traction control.

So why would you buy a Torsen over a TrueTrac? it might be better suited or tuned for you needs. It might be more refined. Why buy a TrueTrac instead? It might be less expensive. It also might be the only option available for any given application - Torsen had a very limited range of aftermarket offerings, since most of our focus in on OEM production. On the whole, many of the differences are probably more important to me than to you. What I mean is, they may not significant enough for the average buyer to notice.

Anyway, that's probably enough for now...

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