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Base Model Rear Locking Differential

rubibronco

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IMO the black diamond is a way better value, especially when looking at a 4-door. The rear locker, wash out floors, vinyl seats, rock rails, modular bumper, skid plates, etc all make up a pretty compelling package especially for only a few grand.
Thank you so much for this... you are right.. adding the sasquatch on the base is basically paying for a black diamond.. it is a little more expensive but comes with sufficient differentials to go over any sort of terrain.
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Calypso

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TL : DR; I conclude then that installing a helical gear LSD to the M190 open front differential with a welded ring will require at least a new differential with bolt-on ring, and a ratio change, likely to 4.46 (the std on Badlands/Black Diamond with automatic transmission).

The search function does its job, most excellently here! The search police will be pleased. . .

I am a newbie to the world of off-roading. This has been a rich discussion of what appears to be a popular topic, of how to get more out of an open front differential on these beasts. I don't want or need the 35" wheels or front locker of the Sasquatch pkg, yet I am looking into paths to get the most capability from my 2 dr Outer Banks (or your base or Big Bend) drive train with rear locker, advanced transfer case, and 3.73 or 4.27 gears. I will also install 285/70 33" tires on 17 X 8 rims, because it's a good look.

My Bronco will be a daily driver, with off-road use limited to unpaved roads, forest trails, and off road on relatively smooth ground (no rock climbing or other technically intense activity). I conclude that the helical gear LSD will be the best compromise of minimal maintenance (vs clutches) and 'daily drivability' (vs lunchbox lockers).

It appears then that unless the M190 diff indeed has a bolted ring gear, that I will need to:

- replace the entire front differential. If I'm spending this cash, upgrading to the M210 seems the thing to do for the added capacity. New half-shafts may also be needed if the dimensions of M190 vs M210, or the capacities of the half shafts differ.
- get a new ring/pinion set for both front and rear diffs, presumably the 4.46 ratio used on the BD and BL's with AT, w/o Sasquatch. If a 4.27 WERE available for the M210, would this be suitable with the 33's and 10 spd AT (4.45% higher gearing than 4.46)? Would save having to open up the rear differential.
- pro installation required for any of these gearing possibilities.

I'm not weighing a Sasquatch or not decision for ordering here, rather laying out the possible ways to proceed in the future as Ford Performance or aftermarket components come to market.

Thanks in advance for your comments, corrections, or other insight as to the drive train modifications under consideration!
 

Atomicdog

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New half-shafts may also be needed if the dimensions of M190 vs M210, or the capacities of the half shafts differ.
There was early word from Ford that they were using the same half shafts from the Sasquatch on every Bronco. I don't know if that changed or not.
 

Calypso

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There was early word from Ford that they were using the same half shafts from the Sasquatch on every Bronco. I don't know if that changed or not.
These options from the Dealer Accessory list are in the back of my head. I'm curious to learn more regarding the weak link in the front axles, and what the upgraded shaft represents.

M-3429-BR BRONCO M210 HALF SHAFT KIT Exterior TBD
M-3249-BU BRONCO M210 UPGRADED HALF SHAFT KIT Exterior TBD
 

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I too am curious about the half shafts up front, as well as what's different about the upgrade parts. I might be able to find out something, but I may not be able to report it here for the time being. But am being told that M190s are indeed welded, just like on Ranger. So, yeah, the diff swapping will require a ring & pinion change and regearing will require a diff change.

If I'm mistaken, the only ratio included for the M190 on the accessory / DIO list was a a 4.70:1 set. But I have to believe that there will be others. My understanding is that the M190 itself is just an updated Dana 30 carrier and gear set, so other ratios might not be a far cry. But I would agree that if you go through that much effort or expense, then going to an M210 might be reasonable. In fact, I wonder how many M210s will migrate into Rangers as well...
 

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Calypso

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So, yeah, the diff swapping will require a ring & pinion change and regearing will require a diff change.
I appreciate your input - I've learned a lot from you input here and elsewhere in the forum!

IF 4.27 ratio were available for re-gearing, do you have an opinion of running that with the AT and 33's (2.7L V6 if that matters). It seems to me a small mechanical difference, but I'm concerned that I'm failing to appreciate the nuances of 4.27 vs 4.46 vs 4.70 in the real world, and perhaps expecting the transmission to do too much in the name of response and efficiency.
 

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The difference between the ratios might not sound like much, but it is a 10% change across that spread. That's 10% more torque and 10% less road speed at a given engine speed, or vice-versa. So it makes a difference. Of course, you can combine whichever ratios and tires sizes you'd like, but you'll have make sure both ends match. But is a good idea to try to keep the tire size changes proportionate to the ratio changes. But if you do move to a lower-numeric effective combination, you would see (potentially, but not always) an improvement in MPG, at the price of the feeling of performance. But its always a judgement call, a balance of priorities.
 

dgorsett

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The difference between the ratios might not sound like much, but it is a 10% change across that spread. That's 10% more torque and 10% less road speed at a given engine speed, or vice-versa. So it makes a difference. Of course, you can combine whichever ratios and tires sizes you'd like, but you'll have make sure both ends match. But is a good idea to try to keep the tire size changes proportionate to the ratio changes. But if you do move to a lower-numeric effective combination, you would see (potentially, but not always) an improvement in MPG, at the price of the feeling of performance. But its always a judgement call, a balance of priorities.
I might quibble and say 4.27 to 4.46 and 4.46 to 4.7 is more like 5%, but your point is valid.

I'm getting the 4.27's and intend to up size to 33's at some point, I think the ratio is fine. The one drawback I can see with the 4.27 is it looks like a M210 swap would not be possible (at least for now) as the M210 is not available in 4.27, as a unit anyway.

Edit: Re reading your post I see you mean across the spread from 4.27 to 4.70, I should know better than to quibble with the Rocketman!:oops:
 
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Calypso

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I’d be looking at 5% difference from 4.27 to 4.46 if I changed the ratio, and would bite the bullet on a 4.46 gear set for the rear M220 diff. I’ve no intuitive sense of the difference, and I expect real world feedback to be available once Broncos hit the ground, and the aftermarket responds.
@dgorsett, @Rocketeer Rick, @Atomicdog, thanks for the dialogue. I think I have a path to follow for this upgrade, and thanks to all in this post for an interesting and informative discussion!
 

drive21bronco

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I too am curious about the half shafts up front, as well as what's different about the upgrade parts. I might be able to find out something, but I may not be able to report it here for the time being. But am being told that M190s are indeed welded, just like on Ranger. So, yeah, the diff swapping will require a ring & pinion change and regearing will require a diff change.

If I'm mistaken, the only ratio included for the M190 on the accessory / DIO list was a a 4.70:1 set. But I have to believe that there will be others. My understanding is that the M190 itself is just an updated Dana 30 carrier and gear set, so other ratios might not be a far cry. But I would agree that if you go through that much effort or expense, then going to an M210 might be reasonable. In fact, I wonder how many M210s will migrate into Rangers as well...
I was hoping Ford was going to not put in welded ring gears in there 190 to go along with their modularity theme on the Bronco. But I guess they just want you to upgrade to the 210 axle all together.
 

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Anyone else planning on getting Sasquatch (4.7 gears) and swapping to 33” tires? Seems like a great way to boost performance for the 2.3L/manual, and I get all the other Sasquatch goodies, too.
 

Calypso

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Anyone else planning on getting Sasquatch (4.7 gears) and swapping to 33” tires?
Upon further review, this morning my dealer changed my order to include the Sasquatch package on the Outer Banks. Seems that if the M190 is your front differential, you're stuck with an open diff. An upgrade requires a new diff in any case. As I mentioned a few posts up, the replacement would be an M210 anyway.

As a bonus the Sasquatch take-offs should have way more market value than the 18" OBX take-offs, to better offset the cost to acquire the 33's.

and I get all the other Sasquatch goodies, too.
So, M210, 4.7 gears and the lifted suspension (33's will definitely fit now) for about $2000 - $2500 (installed, with factory warranty) compared to the non-Sasquatch build cost.

The value of the Sasquatch package has been touted since I found this forum last summer; the light has to shine a little longer to get some seeds to sprout.
 

Ride Em Bronco

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Brake lock distribution is a traction control for off road use that applies brake to spinning wheel (one wheel drive) which allows other wheel that has traction to spin. It actually works quite well in most situations. Not as good as a mechanical locker, but still good. It’s on every bronco (and every wrangler).
Where would I find it stated under the Bronco standard features that Brake Lock Differential is standard for all Broncos - or in my case for the Big Bend? Since I do not plan on off-roading I am not considering the rear locker option - especially if the Big Bend has the Brake Lock Differential standard as the Jeep Wranglers do.
 

Rocketeer Rick

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Keep in mind that the term "Brake Lock Differential" is just marketing speak for brake-based traction control. Basically, the PCM notices that one wheel is slipping and applies that individual brake to arrest the slip. That's something that a lot of cars have had standard for years now. On a 4x4, you can call it a fancy name to make it sound like a substitute for a locker (which it isn't). In our case, Ford is at least calling it like it is:

Ford Bronco Base Model Rear Locking Differential FeatureCapture.JPG


This is taken from the list of standard features in the base model Bronco on the B&P page. See the 4th line down - Electronic Traction Control. That's it. It also goes hand-in-hand with the first line item, ABS w/ Electronic Stability Control. These are basically different facets of the same system.
 

Ride Em Bronco

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Keep in mind that the term "Brake Lock Differential" is just marketing speak for brake-based traction control. Basically, the PCM notices that one wheel is slipping and applies that individual brake to arrest the slip. That's something that a lot of cars have had standard for years now. On a 4x4, you can call it a fancy name to make it sound like a substitute for a locker (which it isn't). In our case, Ford is at least calling it like it is:

Ford Bronco Base Model Rear Locking Differential FeatureCapture.JPG


This is taken from the list of standard features in the base model Bronco on the B&P page. See the 4th line down - Electronic Traction Control. That's it. It also goes hand-in-hand with the first line item, ABS w/ Electronic Stability Control. These are basically different facets of the same system.
Rocketeer Rick

Thank you for the explanation - I did not realize they were one and the same. Makes sense to me now.
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