The IFS vs SFA Thread

[BroncoMike]

Hasn’t stopped the raptor from being insanely popular.

It isn't what someone does with it every day, but what they could do with it if they wanted to that sells an expensive noncommercial-use truck. Image requires credibility, at least for the hardware - but one can pretty safely assume that 95% of Raptor buyers drivers don't have the time, skill, or inclination to blast down a Baja track at a competitive speed. Raptor is way overbuilt for what most people require of a pickup, but the image of driving a Baja racer to the office and parking it next to a Prius at the Shop n' Save are what sells. We live in a society wherein we can dress ourselves up as who we want to be, regardless of how far a departure from reality that is. Witness all the badass Harley-Davidson pirate costumes worn by podiatrists and financial advisors every weekend - they dress up in their alternate personality and play pretend outlaw biker to temporarily escape... something.

We've talked about it before - without credibility, there will be no image; no image, no aftermarket support; no aftermarket support, no credibility. Absent a certain level of off-road capability, Bronco won't ascend to a self-sustaining image but for a few custom builds and show trucks.

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[phillyfx4]

j-u-s-t for conversation …..

https://www.drivingline.com/articles/5-reasons-why-your-solid-axle-rig-is-obsolete/

 

[JimmyDean]

j-u-s-t for conversation …..

https://www.drivingline.com/articles/5-reasons-why-your-solid-axle-rig-is-obsolete/

That is an absolutely horrendous article.
1) Wheel travel, SFA wins, hands down. The costs to build these 24" travel IFS suspensions is more than to build multiple SFA rigs. And requires suspensions mounted far ahead of the engine, or far under the chassis. I.E. MAJOR modifications to accomplish this, requires typically a completely custom rig.

2) Protection of steering components. Laughable, as the tie rods are in the same relative position. And they can be relocated (easier) on an SFA setup to higher or further back locations. Along with the fact that geometry stays consistent in the steering regardless of suspension compression at the time, there are significantly more steering setups/geometries available as binding at weird off-axis angles is not a concern. the only real exposure is the driveshaft and high centering. This is generally not MUCH of a concern.

3) fast Desert driving? Yeah? No shit sherlock.

4) Weight. Actually, pressure sure that we all take this into consideration. However, the higher unsprung weight is a benefit for rock crawling generally, as it helps to keep more weight on the flexed wheels whereas IFS takes weight off the wheels that can utilize some extra traction.

5) So they are just rehashing point 4 here.

 

[Carolina Jim]

That is an absolutely horrendous article

Welcome to today's Nightly News....in an era of staged surveys, corporate echo chambers, and store-bought 'facts'. Deep Throat nailed it in the 1970s..."Follow the Money".

 

[Stampede.Offroad]

Hasn’t stopped the raptor from being insanely popular.

By what metric? Do we even know how many get built or sold? It's quite a small number I'm sure, and is theoretically going to get two internal competitors for that same small slice of the pie with Rangers and Broncos.

Being a popular marketing gimmick and being a popular product getting sales are quite different. I would guess Wrangler outsells F150 Raptors in the US by around 20:1, at least.

 

[rkj__]

What I've recently realized, is that if Ford goes all in with just an IFS setup, a SFA swap may not be as easy as I thought.

When I looked up SFA swaps on the latest generation of Tacoma, it became clear than not many people are taking that job on. All the electronics and sensors get very unhappy when you tear the OEM front end of the truck off.

Personally, for my intended use, IFS would be best. My old truck with good clearance, open front diff, and locking rear diff worked well enough for me off road. But, for the success of the vehicle, I hope that SFA is possible in one way or another, without costing a fortune for those who want it.

 

[EvlNvrDys]

Being a popular marketing gimmick and being a popular product getting sales are quite different. I would guess Wrangler outsells F150 Raptors in the US by around 20:1, at least.

I would bet the Wrangler easily outsells the Raptor.. But if I had to break it down that a little more...
Ford Raptor (starts mid 50's):
Mostly business men who a) Can afford it & b) Think they are cool in a bad-ass looking truck or c) a good old country boy taking out a 2nd mortgage to have the performance truck he always wanted.

Jeep Wrangler (Base model - high 20's)
Rock crawling party guys who have more fun in the mud than anywhere else. Accounts for probably less than 1% of sales.
Guys who think buying a Jeep (already lifted by the dealer) makes them cool... Welcome to the Jeep wave... 44% of sales
Women... yes everywhere I look I hear/see women and their Jeeps. Guys at work talk about wives wanting a Jeep (yes, my wife has hers) Most seem to want big tires, new wheels, soft tops, and pink stickers. Today's Soccer Mom drives a Jeep! 55% of sales.


So personally, I don't think a SFA or IFS would drive sales here. I see it as Jeep image vs Bronco image. I myself would prefer IFS for the ride quality and also knowing I'd never need what a SFA could do for me that IFS couldn't.

 

[Jalisurr]

By what metric? Do we even know how many get built or sold? It's quite a small number I'm sure, and is theoretically going to get two internal competitors for that same small slice of the pie with Rangers and Broncos.

Being a popular marketing gimmick and being a popular product getting sales are quite different. I would guess Wrangler outsells F150 Raptors in the US by around 20:1, at least.

Ford not breaking down F-150 sales in official releases makes it difficult to get exact figures, but for the sake of having numbers to discuss:

Jeep wrangler sales are around 150k-200k depending on year - http://carsalesbase.com/us-car-sales-data/jeep/jeep-wrangler/.

Despite that they sell every raptor they make fairly easily without discounts, and it being described as "one of the fastest-turning vehicles in the automotive industry" (https://www.edmunds.com/car-news/ford-f-150-svt-raptor-sales-hit-record-highs-company-says.html), the actual production numbers for Raptors aren't that large. According to the raptor forums it's around 25k per year (23k in 2017, 27k in 2018) - https://www.fordraptorforum.com/threads/2018-production-numbers.67813/

So that puts Wranglers at just under 10:1 vs Raptors. Given that the raptor is at a significantly higher price point it doesn't seem too unreasonable to call the raptor a sales success in addition to being a draw for people who actually end up buying an FX4 or somesuch.

 

[hcoll]

I have a 1994 BKO that I'm converting to solid axle, putting in a Dana 60 Kingpin. I highly doubt it but I would really love the new gen BKO to have a solid axle. IFS is great but I actually would like to wheel my new truck and not worry about expensive parts breaking. Solid axles are simple and stronger, no doubt about it. The Raptor is a prerunner therefore, the IFS works but once you start trail driving over rocks and very rough terrain the solid axle shines.

 

[Fosters]

I will never claim IFS is better that SFA for rock crawling, and I don't think anyone will contest IFS is better for doing things at speed. I WILL contest that Ford doesn't need to appease the hard core rock crawlers to make the Bronco a success to the masses. They need the same level of offroad credibility as the wrangler, but don't need to accomplish it in exactly the same way. SFA swaps for the hardcore can come aftermarket potentially.

The thing is they already have something that is really good for doing things at speed. It's the raptor. They don't need a second one. There are other SUVs that have an IFS. There are other trucks that have an IFS. There is one exactly suv/truck (non full size) that has a solid axle, and that's the wrangler. That's it.

Arguing that this one has to be IFS because it's what you want, when there are so many other options, is narrow minded. Either they compete with the wrangler, or they compete with the other mall crawlers and brodozers that are good at doing things at speed...

 

[Nanook]

The Raptor is a massive success.

it also projects an image of a street legal trophy truck (which is far from but not to the general public) without any direct competition in a segment that all mfg’s have ignored.
The Bronco’s difference is the direct competition in an established segment with a history of failed attempts from mfg’s, ruled by a 800lb gorilla

 

[Fosters]

j-u-s-t for conversation …..

https://www.drivingline.com/articles/5-reasons-why-your-solid-axle-rig-is-obsolete/

full IFS and IRS (independent rear suspension) Ultra4 vehicles boasting 24 inches of wheel travel front and rear

24 inches? That's cute.

 

[hcoll]

I agree with Fosters, the Raptor is the IFS platform. If the new Bronco is to compete with Jeep we need a Solid front axle. But don't fret guys there will almost surely be aftermarket IFS kits available, albeit it will cost a lot of coin.

 

[Fosters]

As far as there being solid axle swap kits available... it's becoming much more painful to do those aftermarket, especially due to all of the electronics involved in stability control, traction control and so on. If you grab an F150 and swap a solid axle into the front of it, and then you crash it... wonder how your insurance is gonna feel about it when you disabled all of the safety shit to get your axle in there...

 

[Jalisurr]

The thing is they already have something that is really good for doing things at speed. It's the raptor. They don't need a second one. There are other SUVs that have an IFS. There are other trucks that have an IFS. There is one exactly suv/truck (non full size) that has a solid axle, and that's the wrangler. That's it.

Arguing that this one has to be IFS because it's what you want, when there are so many other options, is narrow minded. Either they compete with the wrangler, or they compete with the other mall crawlers and brodozers that are good at doing things at speed...

False. There are no other current options for a swb, 2 door SUV with IFS, let alone one intended to be able to handle rough terrain and that has any sort of high performance powertrain. There is an option for an SUV with a SFA, it's the wrangler.

A Raptor is far too large to be usable on any of the unpaved roads around where I am. I certainly won't argue that people like me are the majority of the enthusiasts, but the enthusiasts are far from the majority of the market regardless.

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